Jill Wener  
It started to become a little check the box, like, Oh, I'm supposed to do a diversity training, so I can then say on my website that I care about black lives, or I care about whatever. So then it's check the box, and we're not actually teaching people tools to learn these things about ourselves and our systems, and some of them, the systems that we may benefit from.

Jeff Ma  
So if we're just checking the box, then we're kind of causing more harm sometimes than we're doing good.

Hello and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We are here to talk about business we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host, Jeff MA and as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories with real people, real businesses and real life at the center of it all. Today's guest is Dr Jill Wener. And Jill is a board certified inter internist, certified EFT tapping practitioner and trainer, anti racism educator, dei consultant, trauma specialist, allyship coach, expert in physician wellness and co founder and partner at conscious anti racism LLC. Jill is passionate about helping people take responsibility for their problems and teaching them practical, easy, rewarding and trauma informed tools to take self improvement to the next level. Jill is the CO creator of the CME accredited conscious anti racism training programs and the host of the conscious anti racism podcast. She's also the co author of The Best Selling conscious anti racism book, and on top of all that, she's created CME accredited EFT tapping and meditation courses, amongst the numerous clients that Jill's worked with, it includes Georgia Aquarium, Yale University, the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, Seattle Children's Hospital rush, University Medical Center Pittsburgh, Business Group on Health Atkins global and the National Alliance for healthcare purchaser coalitions, just to name a few. And so with that, I'd love to welcome Dr Jill wiener to the show, Jill, how are you doing? I'm good. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. And this is a exciting topic for me. I really want to jump in and hear all about it, but I have to start with a question I ask every guest to kick things off, and that is, what is your passion? And how did you find it

Jill Wener  
okay? I love

that like

ability to see when we're doing things that are not at our best. Like to recognize

our own contribution to patterns or behaviors in our lives that we don't like, and that aha moment of like, Oh, I could be like, this is also me. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm part of this.

I love it for myself. I love being wrong. I love when it's especially when it's just, like, no question, just fully me being wrong, getting defensive.

Jeff Ma  
I learned so much from that, and I love helping other people to get to that point as well, because it's not something that comes very naturally to human beings. I don't think just that self awareness moment, just that I'm like, well, Oh man, that's a magical moment. But as I've experienced, very rare in a sense, or hard to hard, to hard to come by. It's not a daily occurrence, for sure, right?

Adette C. Contreras  
So I guess that really taps into what we're talking about today. Can you kind of talk about how you got into this, this line of work, or into this focus area for yourself? Sure? Sure. So I'll focus specifically on the anti racism work I am for anyone listening rather than watching. I am a white lady, and I was always thought I was one of the good ones, and, you know, cared about race and racism and

Jill Wener  
didn't see that I was a part of a problem. And then I had a friend, I did this meditation teacher training in India for three years, sorry, three months, and I came back into the world, and I was like, I'm this meditation teacher. I'm so wise. I had, at that point, transitioned out of clinical medicine, and I wrote this blog post after the 2016 election called we're going to be okay, I promise. And I had a friend reach out to me, and she said, Hey, I thought that blog post was kind of privileged as a white woman who's a sociology professor, thought you might want to read this article, and it was written by a black man, and it was called, dear white people, please stop telling me it's going to be okay. And it was just such a gut punch, because I didn't really know the.

Word privilege. I didn't understand what that meant, and I was not in a great place in my relationship with this person. So it certainly didn't come from a feel like it came from a place of love. But I was like, well, if I'm gonna,

like, what is this? I if I'm gonna say that I'm not this, which I'm sure I'm not, I want to at least know what she's talking about. And so I started doing reading, and then I was then I was realized very quickly, oh gosh, there's so much for me to learn, and there's so much that I am unwillingly, unknowingly participating in, and some things that I was actively participating in that I didn't

know were harmful,

and I just had a lot of stuff to learn. So that was like, sort of the beginning of my, my deep, deep personal journey in this work. And then I did,

like an allyship training in 2019

with a couple organizers, Leslie Mack and Paige Ingram. And part of that training was come up with the I never thought I'd be doing this work externally. And before I went on the training, I was like, What am I even doing? What

What have I gotten myself into? And part of it was, you know, create a project like, what can you do to bring this work to what you're doing? And they helped me come up with what has become conscious anti racism, which is using these initially, it was geared towards white folks,

Jill Wener  
and now we work, I have a partner who's a black woman, and we do work with all sorts of people, people of all identities, but initially it was, how do I help white people show up in spaces and learn how to be wrong and learn how to process those emotions that come along with being wrong? Because never, never does that feel good,

Jill Wener  
and show up in a way that's really contributing, instead of maybe causing more harm or maybe pulling attention to us. So that was how it started, and then it's kind of developed, like, kind of

in unforeseen, amazing, beautiful ways since then. But that's how I got the start. Wow.

Jeff Ma  
And these are, like, tough, I guess, vulnerable places to be kind of constantly. But I know that. I mean, there's so much I want to dig into for you personally, and I hope you can connect it as well. But I know for the audience, you know, this is Love as a Business Strategy podcast. So like, now we're talking about this very personal, very vulnerable journey that people have to go through, and we're connecting the dots all the way over to business and bottom line and all these other things. And I know by the time it gets there, at least in my experience, it becomes dei and diversity training, and it becomes these very

in my opinion, just it's, it's lost a lot of its original kind of purpose, intent. It's missing the point. What's your take on that? Like, what's, what's been your experience? I know when you work with with businesses and leaders in what makes what's the right way, wrong way? Like, give me a little bit of the breakdown of what you're seeing in the workplace. Yeah, that's, that's such a great question, and it's, I think, so relevant now, because so many like laws are being there's all this backlash to

Jill Wener  
2020 when it seemed like everyone wanted to learn more, and everyone was like, well, all you know, in this together, and then bit by bit, and sometimes not bits, but sometimes in huge amounts, there's been this backlash. I think what has happened is that there's a few things, I mean, to go from zero to 60, as a lot of people did in that time, without having the tools to process what comes up when you do that work, it can put people off. And it can actually, I think, form a kind of trauma, defensive trauma response mode, where the we just shut down, like there's just and that happened to me in times throughout my own journey, like

I remember a time when I was learning about the

criminal justice system and and how the rate of of

Jill Wener  
the disproportionate amounts of people of color being arrested and the way they're treated and convicted and in prison, and I just shut down. And I was like, I this is too much. I'm not like, ready for this, and it's not something I'm proud of, but I also know that that's something that happens to us. So I think when we go from

Jill Wener  
I thought everything was just fine, I'm a good white person, or I'm a good whatever person, because we all have blinds. I'm trying not to say blind spots. We all have areas where we can learn and areas where we have biases

Jill Wener  
to then all of a sudden be expected to be doing all the things correctly, and then maybe it can just be overwhelming for people. So I think that that's one of the reasons. And I think that it kind of threatens a way of a pattern of power, a pattern of hierarchy and and it threatens people's sense of themselves as good people. And

Jill Wener  
it started to become a little check the box like, Oh, I'm supposed to do a diversity training so I can then say on my website that.

Care about black lives, or I care about whatever. So then it's check the box, and we're not actually teaching people tools to learn these things about ourselves and our systems, and some of them the systems that we may benefit from.

So if we're just checking the box, then we're kind of causing more harm sometimes than we're

then we're doing good.

So I think that if we're going to be doing this work,

we have to be able to do it in a way where we the same way we like go to school to learn how to do our jobs or some sort of training. We need to train ourselves to be able to do this work in a sustainable way. And that's no matter your identity, because if you're a person's a part of an oppressed identity,

you're kind of expected to do all this work for very little compensation or no additional compensation, and you people end up carrying that weight when they end up kind of Becoming a scapegoat for the organization. Oh, we haven't all it hasn't all gotten better. It's your fault, and that's the person of color or the person, the other marginalized person, who's trying to

trying to do this work without support, emotional support or financial support. So if we are not like in it and understanding why we're doing it, the actual why and what the benefits are and how to do it, then we end up perpetuating a system that was set up to fail in these circumstances. I

Jeff Ma  
think one of the challenges for me when looking at business is that you're dealing with kind of the entire spectrum of people. I think some people who work in in specifically like, you know, in a in a sense, inviting people who are ready, curious, already willing to adjust and change, kind of open minded, if you will, or have a growth mindset about this, this potential lack of self awareness they could have. And that's one type of work. And then you have like, let's say, the skeptics, or those who are defensive and unwilling to kind of accept some of the problems that you even stated yourself just now. So I'm curious, because when you work with businesses, there's going to be all of those types of people, yeah, and you have to kind of bring them together under one understanding, or at least move them forward together.

How, what does that look like? And I asked specifically, because I know that, like, even the word like racism or anti racism, even though you're saying anti, they're like, What do you mean? Am I? What are you calling me a racist? Like, what are you trying to say? Like, what is that experience like, and how do you overcome those types of barriers? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely become, like, even Dei, or the word woke, right is like this, like, it's all just code for anti blackness, and then all the other things that stem from anti blackness, if I'm if I'm being frank, and I think in a bit like, so my partner and I, Dr Myesha Claire born, we come into it like

Jill Wener  
talking the talk and walking the walk. So I come into it as like, what I shared with you, like, I make mistakes all the time, and she has biases in her world, and she shares how she has biases and and we share the impact of it. And we we lead with with compassion, and we lead with this is we're all part of a system,

Jill Wener  
because I think to do it in a workplace, we have to do personal work, but we also have to, like, make sure the hiring process is equitable, and we have to make sure we have, you know, people's a way for people's voices to get heard and all that kind of stuff. But we can also cause harm doing those if we don't understand our own areas of growth. So we come into it with, like, the system is set up the way the system is set up. If you don't agree with that, that's okay. Like, go with us on this journey. Like, like, just pretend for a moment that this system,

Jill Wener  
we kind of describe the system and the ways it shows up in unexpected ways. So racism, as you know, isn't just the slurs, it isn't just the the jokes, but it's a culture. And it's a culture. It's not just even the redlining or the or the, you know, only white people allowed kind of stuff. It's it's a culture of defensiveness. It's a culture of fear, of being uncomfortable. And so we talk about it in terms of this, like, what is this culture? How does it impact all of us? And then that kind of gives us and as we're doing that, we're teaching tools for people to process all the stuff that's coming up, to know what our emotions are in a moment, to be able to recognize, oh, I'm feeling really uncomfortable right now.

I'm noticing my biases, perhaps that I don't really want to see because they're ugly and I wish I didn't have them. But instead of pretending that we don't like heck yeah, we are all impacted by this system. We have all been racialized in some way. So it's not a personal insult, while we have personal accountability, it's not a I'm bad, you're good kind of.

Thing, it's a we're all in this. How can we be better? And we do have some people who

push back, but the vast majority of people, at least go along with it. And while it may not bring them all the way to the finish line, because there is no finish line anyway, it's like one next step, and they're equipped with tools, and they're equipped with knowledge, and then maybe the next time they hear it, it impacts them in a different way, or they start to see things differently. I

Jeff Ma  
like the way you put that. And

I subscribe to a similar philosophy of, kind of speaking about ourselves and our experiences and then allowing that to hold the mirror up for for others, as well as super important, yeah,

when it comes to, I guess, specifically coming in and working on these things. What I heard from you saying is that we you are operating still at this very human level, a lot of so much. A lot of what you mentioned, if you took out the context of racism or working in the DEI space, it's actually stuff that sounds very familiar to me when just working on culture in general, is that something that you kind of also subscribe to, and kind of like, break that down a little bit for me as well, like when you look at culture, like, if you zoom out and just talk about business culture, team culture,

Jill Wener  
is it one in the same? Or where's the connection there? Yeah. I mean, it's all so we we talk about it as white supremacy culture that might that's often something that freaks people out. That term people from all identities, like people who experience who are harmed by it, and people who benefit from it. So we can also think of it as dominant culture. And that dominant culture is kind of the culture that pervades everything in our society. Whether or not I'm talking to a black person or an Asian person or a gay person or a straight person, it's the dynamic and so. So it's not necessarily like racism, but it's seeing the way these cultures are set up to keep certain power structures in place. So if we have, in our culture, like a workplace, a right to comfort, that's one of the things. It's this. I have this, like God given gift,

mandate to feel comfortable at all times, or a defensiveness or a denial. Then when people come to talk to me, people say, hey, this thing happened. Either you said this thing or someone else said this thing, and I shut them down. I don't listen to them. It could be another white person. It doesn't, you know, like that's a culture that is preventing because this is this work is about everybody having a voice, and everybody feeling like they belong, and everyone feeling like they are included. And it just so happens that there's people who are much, who are historically marginalized that have to be included in that which then benefits everyone. But if I live in a culture where I can't go to my boss and say, Hey, this thing happened, this is how it made me feel, without getting yelled at or blamed or victimized, or if I live at work in a culture where only one right way is one of them. So there's only one way to do things, and the ones open to my suggestions, then there's no way we can change the culture, because it's been determined by this one person or this one board, that this is how it has to be. So those I've taught, I mean, we've taught

Jill Wener  
boards who have a black CEO, and the black CEO was like, Oh my God, I've been doing this in my business like we have. Perfectionism is one of them. Sense of urgency. Things have to get done now. They have to get done yesterday, and they have to be done perfect. And if they're not perfect, you're broken. So she realized, even as this beautiful, like, wonderful, brilliant, inspiring leader that she was kind of

Jill Wener  
the that culture was in infiltrating her work as well. So again, it's sort of like it happens to all of us. It's not if, it's when, and then what? Degrees, yeah, deeply, deeply rooted, I think for me, like the big one was like, paternalism, oh yeah, it's just like, that's just how business is, right. Like, that's just feels like, that's just correct. And it's just, like, deeply, deeply, something we like so subliminal to me that we don't even notice, yeah, like, why I'm not going to offer that woman the promotion because she's got kids and she's not going to have time, like, making decisions for other people, or I'm not going to offer it to so and so, because rather than having people have their own voices, that paternalism is so strong, and I saw it in healthcare all the time. I mean, it's ridiculous in healthcare, and sometimes in the name of love or care or sympathy, all these things, right? Yeah, wow. And

Jeff Ma  
when I think of, I guess making this as we kind of, like wrap it all together, when I think of something, obviously, this is big thing, like, this is like a journey. This is a whole thing. So to the to the listener, in the 20 minutes now that they've had to hear all this, what's something? Maybe a.

Like, I won't say actionable, like, I don't expect people to hear this 20 minute talk and just go and like, their life is completely transformed.

Yeah, that's it. We're good.

But where you know if they're, if you're, if they're curious, or if they just want to, like, litmus test themselves, like, where am I? Like, maybe I have some blind spots, or maybe I have some missing pieces of this puzzle, where do you encourage them to kind of go, like, something, not, not all the way off the deep end, somewhere they can just, like, test the waters. Where should they go? Yeah, your social media feed, so

Jill Wener  
in Facebook, or all your people that you're friends with, are they all the same demographic as you on Instagram or other ones. Are you following?

Now, I don't follow people who have wildly different political beliefs from mine, but, like, I follow a ton of black folks. I could follow more indigenous people you know like so are there people? Are you hearing different voices and perspectives in your life? Or are you in an echo chamber? Because we tend to gravitate towards what makes us feel comfortable.

And so, oh, I really resonate with that, like, I don't know Instagram therapist who gives advice. Well, is that Instagram therapist a white woman who

has my exact same worldview, and maybe, maybe I'm limiting myself by not learning from other people as well. So it doesn't mean you have to unfollow the people you're following. Look at your bookshelf, if you read, you know what books? Who are the authors of the books you're reading? Are they all one demographic? And if, if so, for any of these, just start to follow people who are different from yours, from your own identity, and that will just kind of normalize in your brain, not just seeing one thing all the time.

Jeff Ma  
Love it. That's simple somewhere to start. Already introspecting for myself. So

Jill, I really appreciate this conversation. I know it was quick, but it's, I think it's so important, and I think it's also just such a like in this show, we talk a lot about journeys and emotions, and it's a very human thing. But I do think that this is some of the the hardest kind of true, transformative journeys that to go on. It's very difficult, and so you working in this space is very commendable. I really appreciate the work you do, and also wish you more and more luck as we go into the future, as well as we look to bring humanity back to the workplace. This is probably one of those, those frontiers that we have to be tackling. So thank you so much for coming today and sharing everything with us. Thanks for having me. It was really an honor,

Jill Wener  
absolutely. And if people want to learn more and reach out to you, like, what's a good way for them to connect or learn more, my website has all the work I do. So my my wellness kind of healing work, and also all the anti racism is also healing. But anyway, so all the things I do on my website just Jill weiner.com, and my last name is spelled differently than you may expect, so it's j, i, L, L, W, E, N, E, r.com,

Jeff Ma  
and also on Instagram and LinkedIn, at Jill Weiner, MD, for both of those awesome we'll put those in the notes and to the audience. Hope you enjoyed this conversation. We hope you stay tuned

this episode as at airing time will be in 2025, so what a crazy time it's been. How's the year going? So it's like time traveling whenever we record these episodes, because it's like, now it's it's a different time from when we first had this conversation. We could be totally different people. Jill, when this episode hits people's ears. Gosh, yeah. But with that in mind, thank you all for joining in, staying with us. If you haven't checked out the book Love as a Business Strategy, please do and Jill Do you have a podcast of your own? Yes, conscious anti racism, yeah, absolutely. So please check that out as well. So with that, everybody, have a wonderful week, and we'll see you next time you.