Chris Field: At every moment, each one of us is either crying out for love or giving love.

Jeff Ma: Hello and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business.

I'm your host, Jeff Ma, and as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories about how real people and real businesses operate, and just hear from real humans. And my real human today is a guest that's made a career out of disrupting the status quo. And honestly, he's been doing it since he was a teenager. Chris Field is the founder of Mercy Project, a Texas-based nonprofit that rescues children from human trafficking in Ghana. Their innovative approach has earned international recognition, including the Norman Borlaug Humanitarian Award, and maybe more importantly, has reunited nearly 300 kids with their families and opened the door to an education that can change the trajectory of their lives.

But that is just one part of Chris's story, because at 19, while most of us were still figuring out what classes to take, Chris was running marathons, running for mayor, running a camp for 600 kids every summer. And since then, he's only added to the list with dozens more marathons, four Guinness World Records, raising millions for charity, starting a business class at Texas A&M, helping grow a FinTech startup, and even writing the internet's most viral ice cream review. He's also the author of three books with the latest out just this past August. This isn't a beer ad featuring the most interesting man in the world. It's just my guest, Chris Field, and I can't wait to hear his story. So Chris, welcome to the show. How are you?

Chris Field: Jeff, I'm doing great. It's going to be hard to live up to that introduction. I feel like I should just be done now.

Jeff Ma: I have so many questions because I love your bio. There's so much, but I don't know if we’ll be able to get to them because they're just... I'm going to talk to you offline about some of this stuff. But before we—for the audience's sake—today's topic is about disruption and where love might fit in that. But before we dive into it, I guess I want to open with you. Chris, what is your passion in life and how did you find it?

Chris Field: That's a great question. Great way to start this conversation. I wouldn't have been able to answer this question probably clearly a lot of my life. I was always driven. I was always pursuing the next mountaintop. I was always going, going, going, but I'm not sure I had clear clarity on what the passion was.

And I think as I've grown older, allowed myself to slow down a little bit to enjoy life more instead of chasing the next thing always, I think the through line in my life is my passion is I want to make sure my life mattered. And I want to make sure that one day—I have this vision of sitting in a rocking chair one day when I can't do all the kind of cool stuff that I've been able to do so far—and just looking back on my life and asking myself, "Is that a life you were proud of living?"

And when I think of it through that lens, a lot of the ways I waste my time or chase things that don't matter, or they're just for flattery or my own ego, it's like those things fall away. And what I really want to be able to say to that 80-year-old Chris in that rocking chair moment is, I want to be able to say like, "Yeah, I gave the very best of myself to the world and I have no regrets about the way I loved people, the way I showed up, the way I did the hard work."

Jeff Ma: That's beautiful. I love that. Very inspirational and very introspective for me to think on. I'm curious, when it comes to like all of this obviously overlapping into work, into I guess the work you do, at the end of the day, you know, money makes the world go round. Whether you're for-profit, nonprofit, whatever it is, like we still have to do business. Can you talk a little bit about how that overlaps for you? Like passion is one thing, love and care for the mission is one thing, but then you get down to like, I guess the nitty gritty. What does that look like? What kind of challenges do you face in that space?

Chris Field: Yeah, I think we all have a money story. And so I think so much of what would inform an answer like this for each individual person is like really reconciling what is that money story? What are you running from or what are you running towards? And a lot of us, we use language like, "I want to provide for my family. I want to make sure my kids have more than I did." And then the goalposts just move and move and move and move and move. And we realize it was really never about our families. It was really never about our kids having more. Those are convenient answers over a beer with friends in a backyard.

But for most of us—or many of us, I should say, including myself—we probably need to deal with our own money story of like, what's driving us to have the need to pursue whatever it is we need to pursue? And I'm not exempt from that. I mean, that's work I'm ongoing for me. But I think just being really honest about what is it about money that scares me? What is it about money that motivates me? What is it about money that gets me excited?

And just like... I tell people a lot like money and sex are the two things we've done a terrible job of talking about in this country. And because of that, they're both done really badly. Like because it's like the way a lot of kids learn about sex at the back of the bus from a kid three years older than them, it's like all wrong because that kid has no idea what he's talking about. That's also how we learn about money. I mean, it's just like we're watching bad Instagram reels about how people get rich and we're seeing our neighbor drive by in a car that we're like, "Well, if they can afford that, I want to afford that."

And it's just like getting really honest with ourselves about like, what is the truth about my money story? And what is the truth really about money in America and around the world? I think can help us simplify and not overthink that most of us are in a really pretty good spot when it comes to money. And when we have money pain, it's probably self-induced in many cases.

And I guess the last thing I would say about that for me is I had to try to untie money from my own personal worth. And that means like I'm the same person when I wake up every single morning, whether my bank account balance is zero or whether it's $5 million. And that's not how the world is going to view me, certainly. But if I have the courage to view myself like that and to understand even with a huge bank account balance, I could still be an awful person. And a person no one wants to be around and a person that people literally look at and say, "I don't want to be like that guy. Whatever he has, I don't want it."

And the inverse is also true. I could have nothing and people could look at me and think, "Gosh, now there's a guy that when he walks into a room, he truly wants to celebrate the goodness of other people around him. He truly wants to understand what makes other people tick. He's got a smile on his face. He remembers small details about my life. He genuinely cares." And those people aren't going to like me more or less because I have more or less money. And so it's a trap to believe that reaching some status, some financial place is going to free us because the truth is like we tied ourselves in those handcuffs, most of us, with whatever our money story is. And the trick to untying it is actually dealing with our crap and not making more money.

Jeff Ma: Love that. I tie this I guess desire for money, this need for money to a world that's driven like... when we talk business, you know, top line is money, bottom line is money. So you in doing what you do in the disruption that you create in the work that you do... how does that—I guess moving more into the holistic conversation around love in business and love in this disruption you're doing—draw the big picture for me. Like how do you show up? How does it play into obviously like the work you do is centered in love and care as you've already shown and expressed and it shows in what you do. But as it crosses over into business, as it crosses over into you know, meetings and deadlines and, you know, money... how do you marry the two or how do you accommodate space for the two?

Chris Field: Yeah, you know, I had a really interesting journey because I was all in in the ministry/nonprofit world for a long time. And then I sort of accidentally fell into being able to make money. I mean, it was not something I sought out. I mean, I was making a pretty typical nonprofit salary and it wasn't enough to take care of my family. We have four kids. I started thinking about things like college and retirement. And I was like, oh gosh, like I'm going to have to make more money than I'm able to make doing nonprofit. But I don't want to walk away from nonprofits completely because this is what makes my heart beat.

And so I started doing some consulting and lo and behold—this sounds ridiculous probably to the listeners—but I discovered that the same gifts and passions that made me good at nonprofit also were good at making money. And that is: You're solving real problems. You're persistent. You're tenacious. You say yes when everybody else says no. You treat the person in front of you like you really care about them, not just because they can help you get to your next goal, but because they're the human being sitting in front of you.

Like all of those same things that made me care about kids in Ghana and get on airplanes and go start an international nonprofit—although I had no business doing that at age 27—were all the exact same skills that made me successful in business. And so the only difference is one, everybody goes, "Oh my gosh, that's so amazing." And the other one people are like, "Oh, you just do that." But the method in which you do it is consistent.

I think that's what's beautiful is like, you know, when I was at the startup and we were just growing like crazy and hiring new people and just, you know, the growth was explosive and it was intoxicating to see the numbers on the spreadsheet every month going up and up and up. And I was the Chief Growth Officer and so like I loved those numbers. I mean, I had them memorized. Like I could tell you at any given day how many new customers we got today. This is our growth. This is our customer acquisition cost, you know. And that was fun.

But when I left that startup, what my employees and fellow team members said about me... it had nothing to do with our growth. It had nothing to do with how many hires we'd made. What they talked about was how much I made them feel welcome. And that I was a fellow employee, a boss, a person in their life who seemed to care about them beyond their work. And the irony was that made them great at their work because they felt like they were part of something and they felt like they were being seen and they were being cared for. They weren't just a cog in a machine.

I really did want to know how their mom's surgery went. I really did genuinely get excited about sending flowers whenever they had a new baby. Our company was called HolistaPlan and when one of the people in the company had a baby, we sent them a customized onesie that said "newest HolistaFan." And that guy just, he thought that was the coolest thing. But like, we didn't send that to get more production out of him. We sent it because we were excited with him. But because he felt like we were celebrating with him, it made him a better employee. It made him more loyal to the company. It made him care more about his work because he wanted to be a part of a company that did good things and we made him feel like we cared.

And so I just think it's so beautiful... the work you guys do is beautiful. And I love—I didn't always have language for this to be honest. Like if somebody had said to me five or 10 years ago even like, "You know, what do you think about Love as a Business Strategy?" I would have been like, "Oh goodness, like, I don't know." Like disruption, yes. You know, compassion, thoughtfulness, empathy... but knowing that, knowing what I do now and trying to slow down more as I mentioned already and be more reflective and delight in the beautiful moments of life more... we are all so hungry for connection and for authenticity. And we're going to find it somewhere. Not always in the best places and not always in the healthiest places, but we're going to find it somewhere.

And I read a quote once and I wish I could credit it—and if you haven't heard this, you're going to absolutely love this—but it said: "At every moment, each one of us is either crying out for love or giving love." And that was just like one of those... there's not a ton of stuff that sticks in my brain kind of permanently; information comes in and out constantly. But man, that was one that was like... I was looking at my own life and thinking, what are those moments when I'm crying out for love? And what are those moments when I'm giving love? And then started looking at all the people around me—my kids, my wife, my family, the people I work with—and it was just really beautiful to see.

It gave me a lot of grace for people around me. When I would see a behavior, I'd think, "Oh man, they're really crying out for love right now." Like that's a person who really needs someone to show up for them and to love them. And then other times when I'd see someone doing [something good], I think, "Wow, that person is really... they are really loving really well right now and I want to learn from them and honor that and celebrate that with them."

So I just think the business journey for me has been... people are people. And humans are a beautiful, complicated, messy bunch, myself included. And the one through line is we all want to be loved. And we all want to feel like our lives matter. And so when we can do that faithfully and sincerely—not as an act, not as a way to drive more revenue as our motivation—but because we genuinely care about the people sitting in the office with us, I think a lot of the other small stuff takes care of itself.

Jeff Ma: I obviously agree with everything you said. I guess my question for you is kind of hearing what you're saying about this impact of just genuine care and genuine love that you give to others and how it does, like you mentioned, yield actual better productivity, better business results, all these things. That's at the core of everything we, I believe in as well.

The question and challenge that I face—I'm curious how you look at it—is when people come to this table with the goal of fixing their business problem, and you're starting from that place and this love and this care becomes a tactic to do that... versus the other way around where it's you have to genuinely and authentically care and care for the human almost away from the business needs and you yield that outcome. Like those two sides of that equation, how do you kind of come to terms with it? Like what should... in other words, if a listener out there is like, "Yeah, I would love to employ these tactics to improve, I would love to add this equation to my workplace or my team or my business," how would you kind of I guess coach them to start? Or how do we get to a place where we genuinely care? Or do we need to? Can we just fake it? I mean, like what are your thoughts on that?

Chris Field: I think that we can't confuse some problems in business [that] are problems whether we're loving people or not. So if we have a bad product or we're not taking care of our customers or our business doesn't follow through on our commitments... that is going to be true independent of how well we're loving the people around us. So this isn't a shortcut or a trick or a secret that gets us to better revenue. So there are business problems and we got to be honest about those business problems.

But it's the way we approach solving the problems. With sincerity and with authenticity and with a desire to listen to the people around us to draw them in instead of push them away. To welcome them instead of close the door. To add another seat at the table instead of turning that table on its side and creating a wall. I mean, the energy with which we go about trying to solve those problems and the way we choose to engage the other stakeholders, that all can be done in love regardless of what the actual business problem is.

But I do think it's a dangerous idea to say, "Well, if I can get better productivity, well then I'll just act like I really care about all these people." Because that's actually even worse than just not caring about them. At least when you don't care about people and you're honest about it, they know where you stand and they know not to depend on you. It's worse for somebody to believe they can depend on you and for you to be unwilling to show up when they actually need you.

So I still teach a class at the university and this was our first week of class. And I do something every semester: I write my phone number on the board and I tell my students to put the number in their phone. And I say, "If you ever find yourself in a position where you truly have no one else you can call, please call me. Because I don't know what your family life is. I don't know how much you can depend on your friends. Even if you make a terrible decision that lands you somewhere where you have to make a call you never thought you'd be making, I'll take the call."

And what I hope happens with that is I hope my students believe that if I ever have a student who really does feel like there isn't a single person in the world that cares, that they will actually remember, "You know what? I remember that one professor and I'm going to call him on his bluff right now. I'm going to call him and I'm going to see if he'll show up." Because I will. I mean, there's a lot of things I'm not good at, but I'm pretty darn good at showing up. And that's one thing that has nothing to do with talent. It has nothing to do with money. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Anyone can choose to show up.

And you know, there's not a lot I can guarantee somebody about their life. Can't make it easier. Can't take away all their pain. Can't reverse a bad decision they just made. I'm not a therapist so I can't help them unpack things that they need to unpack with a therapist. But I can show up. And I'm never more proud or more grateful than when somebody takes me up on that and when somebody calls in that hour of greatest need and I get the chance to show up.

And so I think for all of us, that should be something we aspire to. Let's be the friend that people know will show up when they call. And if we're not that person, we should ask ourselves why. Like, why are we not the person people call in their hour of greatest need? And that sometimes is not a fun conversation with ourselves because it reveals things about us—why we've made people feel unsafe or like we're too busy for them. That's a huge problem of mine; I'm very efficient and that is also often read by others as me being too busy for them, even though that's not my intention. My intention is to manage my time well, but other people sometimes feel that as me being too busy.

And if you don't mind, I like to tell stories, I’ll tell you one thing... another one of those little anecdotes I've never forgotten. I had a professor in college who was like the professor in the department. I mean, everybody loved him. Everybody wanted time with him. I mean, the university president wanted time with him all the way down to his freshman students, right? I mean, he was that guy.

And I remember I got pretty close with him late in college and became pretty good friends with him. And we were just talking one day and he could tell this was going to be a problem of mine—that my efficiency, my drive was going to cause me to hurt other people unintentionally. And so he said, "I want to tell you something." He said, "I don't really tell many people this, but I think you need this in your life." And I said, "Okay." I'm like notebook out, I'm ready. And he goes, "No, no, no, put all that away. You're not going to need to write this down."

He goes, "What do you notice right now about me sitting at my desk?" And I said, "Oh, I'll tell you immediately what I notice because no one else does this." I said, "Your shoes are off and your feet are on the desk." And he goes, "Yep, I do that every time somebody walks in my office." And he said, "You want to know why?" And I said, "You want to be comfortable?" And he said, "No. I want to signal that I have nowhere else to be but with that person in that moment." And he goes, "And is that true? Never." He said, "I always have somewhere else to be. There is always someone else who wants my time. Always."

And he goes, "But it's a reminder to me that if I've chosen to sit with this person, they should deserve to feel like I'm sitting with them until they no longer need me."

Jeff Ma: Wow.

Chris Field: And yeah, that was 22 years ago and I've never forgotten that story from him. And I think that's work I'm doing right now in my life, Jeff. Like that has not been my forte. I am good at a lot of things and making people feel like I have the time and space for them as much as they need is not. But I keep coming back to that story.

And that's my simple answer to your tough question about using this as a business strategy even when we have problems in the business. If that's the energy we show up with—that we have the time for people and we're willing to show up even when it's hard and uncomfortable—I think a lot of those other things are going to take care of themselves.

Jeff Ma: Thank you so much for that story. I mean, wow, it's powerful and that's the episode. Love is a showing up strategy at the end of the day, and it's so powerful. What an amazing reminder and just example of something that we're all, especially since the virtual kind of COVID days... I think we've never been less present as a society with each other, whether it's our phones and distractions and just multitasking and virtual calls. What a powerful reminder to be present and show up.

So Chris, thank you so much for the wisdom you've shared today and just the storytelling. It was amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time and sharing with us.

Chris Field: Yeah, thank you for having me on and thank you for what you guys do. It matters and I'm cheering you on big time.

Jeff Ma: Appreciate it. And to our audience, thank you as well. Thank you for continuing to listen. We're actually starting shortly after this episode... we should be posting a new season really is the plan as we transition into our next book. Love as a Change Strategy is launching in September. Not sure when this is coming out, but it should be either near or around. So we're going to be starting to talk to guests and have new conversations around change specifically and how love fits into that. So look forward to that. If you haven't, go preorder Love as a Change Strategy. If you're getting this and it hasn't come out yet, go check out both our books. We appreciate all the support. And with that, thank you once again to Chris and we will see everybody soon. Bye bye.