[00:00:00] Intro: people say, well, everybody can't be the leader, you got to be followers. That's absolutely true, but I do think at its core component, um, leadership's about influence and impacting others and helping them. And then we can all be leaders, you know, even if we're just leading um, the the reception desk at a at a company.

[00:22:549] Jeff: Hello and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your faithful host, Jeff Ma, and as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories from real people about real business in real life.

[00:49:159] Jeff: My guest today is Tim Lupinacci, and Tim is the CEO and chair at Baker Donelson, where he leads over 1300 individuals in 23 offices across the Southeastern US.

[01:02:889] Jeff: Prior to becoming CEO six years ago, Tim spent the first 28 years of his legal practice focused on helping financial institutions solve complex problems in commercial restructuring and bankruptcy bankruptcy matters throughout the country.

[01:16:409] Jeff: Uh, during his leadership journey, Tim chaired the Financial Services Department, the Baker Women's Pathways to Leadership Committee, and served as a member of the firm's Diversity Inclusion Committee. Tim is presently leading the firm's Baker Vision 2028 strategy and its diversity inclusion compact. A lifelong leadership student, Tim recently launched a nonprofit called Everybody Leads, focused on empowering individuals in underserved communities with basic leadership skills and confidence to better lead themselves, lead others, and lead in the community. And I think in that introduction, I used the word lead or leadership at least 15 times. So it's fair to say we're here with a, a expert in leadership. Welcome to the show, Tim Lupinacci. How are you doing, Tim?

[02:02:509] Tim Lupinacci: Jeff, I'm, I'm great and I'm really excited to be here. As I've mentioned, I've really learned a lot from your book and your podcast. So, uh, really appreciate all your work and glad to be a part of it.

[02:11:139] Jeff: Very kind, very kind. And I normally ask what is your passion to all my guests? I get the feeling I know part of the answer, but I'm going to ask it anyways. Tim, what is your passion and how did you find it?

[02:25:459] Tim Lupinacci: Yeah, Jeff, I it really, I mean, among a few other things, but leadership has been my passion for a long time now. And it really started, um, from a really epic failure in my career. I was a young lawyer, uh, and I looked at I I did not have any lawyers in my family and I didn't really know the legal industry. I kind of joke that I stumbled into the profession, but uh, I I viewed it very transactional. I worked for a big firm, I'd get a project, I'd do the project, turn it in and go on to the next project. And, uh, I was part of a team and working with a lawyer who was a little bit older and we worked on this big project for a big bankruptcy case, turned it in, and next thing you know, a few hours later, we're getting, uh, paed to come to our boss's office and he's on a phone call with like a dozen lawyers. And he, uh, started cussing and saying, uh, these idiots are going to stay here all night and get it fixed. And what it turned out we and we had, we had double counted some numbers in our calculations that everyone was relying on to go to court the next day. Uh, but I had done my part, right? I turned it into my senior, the senior lawyer and then he turned it in. So we stayed there, got it fixed. I'm thinking I'm going to get fired. Uh, and I had drawn the short straw to pick up my boss on the way to court the next day at his house. So I picked him up. It was pretty awkward silence for a while. And then he did apologize and he said, uh, I really shouldn't have yelled at you in front of other people. Uh, but I wanted to tell you that I I I really think you have the ability to be very successful in this career, but you need to own your career. I see that you can be a real leader in this profession, but you have to own it and you have to step up and be a leader and not just rely that you turned in something to somebody else. Uh, and that kind of, uh, I appreciate his apology, but it really made me think, well, I'm not really sure that I know exactly what that means to be a better leader. Uh, I mean, I'd done some stuff in, you know, college and things like that, but so it really launched me on this lifelong journey of I've got to learn how to be a better leader, uh, and, you know, through reading books and podcasts and of course, back then listening to books on tape, you know. Um, just to really try to understand and get better at being a leader and it so much influenced my life that I really have this passion to see others really step into it, um, and and lead better. So, that's kind of the start of it.

[04:33:639] Jeff: Wow. You know, for me, leadership is like this one word and you can really just kind of think of it in this single-minded way, but from my experience, the deeper you dive into it and the more you look at it, it's just there's just more and more to it. It's just such a big, broad thing. So as a, I guess self-professed leadership junkie yourself, um, have you found more clarity in your journey here? Like is, is leadership really this like, got to think about everything everywhere all at once kind of thing or have you found like what have you narrowed it down to something more simple? Like can you define leadership in your own way today?

[05:11:539] Tim Lupinacci: Yeah, that's great. And I love that movie everywhere all it's a great reference. So it's like, yeah, now I'm thinking about that. No, but so one of the, and you mentioned the nonprofit I I I've started under this idea of everybody leads. And I know people say, well, everybody can't be the leader, you got to be followers. That's absolutely true. But I do think at its core component, um, leadership's about influence and impacting others and helping them. And then we can all be leaders, you know, even if we're just leading um the the reception desk at a at a company, um that, you know, we can own that space and we can influence others, people that come in, we can see, you know, if a colleague has a problem, we could try to help them solve that. And they may not have a fancy title, but they do have influence and and and impact. And so if you look at it in that lens, um yeah, it's a very broad topic. Um I think the first book I read on it back when my boss had challenged me was that uh 26, 28, 29 irrefutable laws of leadership, um by John Maxwell and it just kind of goes from there that there's all these things. Um but but I've always I I've found that how I want to get better, try to get better every day is how am I influence and impacting others? And part of that, um, is, I mean, there are living out core values. There's some certain things that I really try to implement every day, um, in in leadership in, um, showing empathy and compassion and listening is something I think it's a key component of leadership. Um, I think, uh, I I kind of have an an acronym an acronym that I put together that I really try to lead, try to lead each day like just around the word courage. You know, um, I need to show up. I need to be confident because I do have that fancy title that I do have people that are relying on me to try to help lead. I need to have be confident. I need to be out front is the O. I need to be unshakable or that, you know, if the things are going to happen that are going to get me kind of off track. Um resilient, uh things are going to go wrong and then how can I bounce back? Um be adaptable, have a growth mindset and be an encourager. And so yeah, it's a lot of things, but I find if I'm really focusing on living that out and really trying to um invest in others uh by pouring into them, helping them achieve their success that I am being a leader and it a lot of it can just be through influence and impact. So I don't know if I fully answered that question, kind of rambled a little bit, but um I think if we just focus on how can we help others achieve their goals that that we're really going to hit the ball out of the park a little bit, I think.

[07:31:949] Jeff: Yeah, definitely you've, you've answered the question and more and I have so many more now. So I'm trying to figure out where to start. Um, I love this acronym. So your acronym for courage, um, is interesting because at your core, are you saying that being an influential leader requires courage at its core? And can you define that a little bit? Because all the letters make a lot of sense. But then can you talk about the word courage itself?

[08:00:529] Tim Lupinacci: Yeah, and and actually is that great question, Jeff. I it started when I started really narrowing in on that acronym was right around the pandemic. Um, the global pandemic in 2020 and um, you know, nobody had the playbook and we have a large organization and we sent everyone home and doing, you know, and working remotely and all of that. But there was all this uncertainty and and I could find myself getting kind of deflated or like when they extended the stay at home order. I mean, I literally remember the first thing was like our state, I'm in Alabama, the the governor said be at home till March 31st, right? That was sometime in mid- March. Well, then sometime a week later they said, well, that's been extended April 30th. And I'm getting kind of down. I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this. How we gonna But I just realized because of I was a leader, I needed to, I needed to really get courageous. I needed to have adapt some adopt something that was, um, uh, my colleagues needed to see the courage in the face of the uncertainty. So, but I found that even as we've made it through the pandemic and everything, that that's just a it's a the whirlwind of the day brings all kinds of uncertainties. Um, you know, it could be like our fiscal year ends January 31st. And so we're coming through that pretty recently. Uh, and, you know, clients in our industry had been a little slower paying this year. Well, that's something that we have to be very courageous like, okay, well, what does that mean? How do we kept moving forward? Uh, maybe there's some things we can do to collect more on some more current invoices to make the year that we need to make or things like that. So, I think it's it served me well and it kind of also um, uh, was born out of starts with the pandemic, but I was also reading that book at the time, um, about uh, Churchill, uh, that Eric Lawson wrote. I think the vile and the evil or the vile and the, but Churchill was a lot about courage and about know the brutal reality of your situation, but have the encouragement, not based in myths, but that you can actually succeed and thrive if you really have that plan on how to move forward through it. So I think that is I think leadership is a lot of courage. Um, uh, and and knowing that um not everyone's going to agree with everything you do and you got to say, well, if I believe this is the best thing that I'm doing for my team, for my firm, for my company, I need to step forward and keep doing it. So that um that's kind of how I think courage has served me well, I'll say, and still does.

[10:23:809] Jeff: I love that. And it helps it brings me to this thought where a lot of the the struggles I see leaders have and in their in their head, it's a it's an either or kind of lever to pull. But help me understand your perspective on this. There's this idea that uh many many would read your your kind of courage statement and maybe even some of the things within it like confident, unshakable, some of these elements that are in it, and they might translate that as I have to be strong and kind of lead the way, have all the answers and be like take all the hits and all these things. But there's this other concept of I guess vulnerability and kind of servant leadership and all these other things that that I wouldn't say are polar opposite, but people find themselves at odds because there's also strength in a leader who has the courage to say, I don't know the answer. I don't know what I'm doing. I've messed up. I'm sorry. Like these types of things. Can you help me balance in your head, what's the right mix? What is, what, what is that that best version of that leader look like?

[11:41:489] Tim Lupinacci: Yeah. it's a great question. I heard somebody make a comment that while the 20th century may have been about IQ, like intellectual, you know, uh, and and and and strong leader control and command command and control leadership, that the 21st century is more around EQ, that emotional quote, you know, intelligence. And um, and I've found that true. I mean, first of all, for the very fact that I don't know everything, I don't know a lot. I feel like I'm always trying to learn because I want to get better and and try to do it that I'm, um, I found uh that you build trust, I've built trust and and authenticity uh with my colleagues by being vulnerable and and saying, yeah, I not only did I make a mistake, but I heard you and and and we fixed it and here's what we're doing about it or yeah, we've let some things down because I'm not in the trenches every day and we didn't really realize it, but I hear your feedback and now we're going to act on it. Um, those are things I think are invaluable. And and we've had a lot of success as a company the last several years. And a lot of that is this to me comes back from that point that um, we have that openness, um, for feedback, for listening, for admitting that we've made mistakes that I don't know everything. Um, but then adjusting and moving forward, which is, um, kind of I in my courage acronym is kind of the adaptable thing. Like we got to be ready to do that. Now, I will say, um, there are times I have to be absolutely, I have to be confident and absolute in making the decision and moving forward and it may not like it's not a popularity contest. Um, uh, and particularly if it's in the best interest of the company because individuals, it may be in an individual's best interest, but I mean, how does that interact with the company's best interest? Um, and that's where uh, uh I actually have a lot of learning and work to do because I tend to fall on more of the side. I like to everyone like me, you know, I want everyone to say, oh yeah, you know, Tim heard me and and I want to hear folks and we're going to make changes when we can, but we can't do it all. Um, and and also another component of that, so I try to balance it. I try to keep getting better. I realize that I've got to focus on the best interest of the the organization. Um, but the other thing is to surround our our executive team has some folks who are probably a little bit more on the end of the spectrum of, well, no, I see clearly this is what we need to do. Let's just go do it. Uh, and that helps also that we can have the really vulnerability amongst ourselves to kind of disagree about certain things, but then we get to a point of moving forward uh, where, um, it's kind of in the middle. So anyway, it's it's I think it's a combination of all of it. But for me, I found that uh I I think that that's how you build buy in on what you're trying to accomplish is when you can bring people along and understand that. So.

[14:23:579] Jeff: I like that. That one one that stands out for me is out front. Can you talk about what that means for courage?

[14:30:759] Tim Lupinacci: Yeah, some of it was, um, I mean, I I I was I was a I was in theater some in college and high school. So I mean, I know you're being out on the front of the stage, but, you know, as a lawyer, I kind of did my thing. I had to be out in front court certainly. Um, but then uh in leadership with, you know, 1300 people as you mentioned, there's a part of me that um, particularly in the pandemic time that I just want to kind of like, I want to be like everyone else and kind of hole up and like try to what does this mean? You know, how do I deal with this? But I realized that um because I was in this position, I needed to be out front. I needed to and I needed to share my vulnerabilities. I mean, I shared that story like we started doing uh daily video updates and some of it early on was about well, we're move going to home, we're going remote. What does that mean? You know, and things like that. But then it just got to it was a way to keep connected with our people. And I would do a video like talking about like, I can't believe that I've got the the the governor extended it a month, you know, and just but we're we're working through it. We're going to keep doing it or um there was one time we had a series of board meetings about a really important stuff and a lot of Sundays and I finally got to like and we'd been working all weekend. I got to like a Sunday night at 5 o'clock and I texted our COO and I said, I just got to go out to the back porch and listen to some music and like I'm going to disconnect um for two hours. Give me two hours to step away um to recharge, um and then come back um and and get on engage. But I told that story after the fact. I mean, I didn't do it to set up a story, but I just realized I need to be vulnerable. but this is hard, right? And so I think that, um, that is what I mean. It's also, um, there's a component of that that I know Tim and I know I do need some downtime. I need some time uh that I'm doing like running in the mornings is important to me because it's some Tim time to think. I need, I try to do a digital Sabbath for 24 hours over the weekend. People can get me on text if they need to, but I try not to just keep checking emails because I need to recharge. Um, but I need that to then be out front on the other times or when I'm visiting an office, I need to walk the halls and I mean, I enjoy walking the halls, but I don't need to just stay in my hotel until the dinner that night, right? So those are some ways that it works for me and what I mean by that.

[16:43:229] Jeff: My last kind of uh, well not my last curiosity, but the last one I have time for probably is around this um this universe you work in where um I I'm hearing you talk about all this leadership and these qualities that really build a strong culture. And then I think of uh like guess law and the legal like um world and not to generalize or stereotype, but I think there is a stigma around what it takes to cut it in a law firm and in that world. And lot of it contradicts um often, at least in people's minds, what builds a a more loving and caring culture. Can you speak to that um broadly at least uh from your perspective and how you've able how you're able to kind of apply that at Baker Donaldson?

[17:35:219] Tim Lupinacci: Yeah. No, Jeff, you're spot on. I mean, there's and you said you're right, it's generalizations, but when you look at like uh you do those personality tests and stuff, lawyers are much more um skeptical than the general population. They're much more um uh uh individualized. Uh they want more to be in control. Um and and obviously because they've done that extra education, they're all very smart and often times have that perception they feel like they're the smartest person in the room. Um and so you've got all that uh to navigate uh that that um and then how do you how was it lead And it's a very flat organization. You know, we've got 300 shareholders who are owners of the firm that um uh you know, that have to have input and impact and then you have to kind of bring them along. So that goes back to what I've tried to do in building those authentic relationships with people, the trust, to to to build trust, um that they can come to me with feedback and they can know that I'm going to listen to them and not do everything that they want, but try to build that relationship has really been invaluable. Um, we've and with that feedback, we've done launched a vision that is based on what the clients want and it's helping our colleagues succeed. So they're seeing some momentum now that also says, okay, well this this is some good stuff that if I collaborate, even though I would prefer to be work by myself and get it done. If I collaborate, it's going to help me, it's going to help our clients and it's going to help me even economically. So some of it is just really spending the time. I like to talk about, you know, breaking bread and sharing things. I love getting around a dinner table because I think you're more apt to just get to know individuals. So that's one side of it. The other thing I spend a lot of time on too is to try to and this is some change management and it's not, I mean it's uh it's I think it's a work constantly in progress of um, you know, our professional services and staff are invaluable to us serving our client and every one of them, um can is a leader and every one of those individuals, um it's not the hierarchy of if you have a law degree, you should be dictating, well you work for me, even though that may be, you know, the truth of in the sense of an owner. Now again, it's a work in progress, but as people start to trust and build that in, it's more of us working together as a team. So uh I try to really and I talk about the value of our staff and our business services professionals. We just had a town hall today that was the entire firm and we talked about all the same things with everyone just about how important it is to try to drive forward. Not about drinking the Koolaid, but about how can we work together. So, um, yeah, it's it's something that has taken a lot of work, but hopefully it's bearing some dividends by the the relationship and the trust.

[20:07:719] Jeff: As a, as a kind of devil's advocate question, like you have a hot shot attorney who thinks they know it all and they treat everyone around them um as such. And they're they're in your organization. Like are there, can you talk a little bit about either systems or processes or programs that you've you've considered or placed to help alleviate this, I'm just going to call it hypothetical situation. Um, can you talk a little bit about that?

[20:40:219] Tim Lupinacci: Yeah, and and and and again, it's um, where the line can be very like if you get in the middle, there's some people that like in the middle of a heated situation get aggravated or what things don't, you know, we all can do that. But um, we do have a pretty we value our culture. I know every company does it, but we really try to um live it out in the context of we're going to respect each other, we're going to treat each other with dignity and we're going to um as a professional. Uh, and so uh we really do dock even those high performing, you know, rain makers, the people with big books of business. If they're mistreating people, you know, or they go off the rails on somebody or whatever. Now certainly that if it's the one first time, sit down, talk to them. We may even talk about, you know, coaching depending on the situation, uh talk about how we um um that it's unacceptable. Uh and then ultimately, if that doesn't work, we have um had those uh difficult decisions of, you know, releasing some of our top top performers back into the marketplace to let them go figure out where to plan elsewhere, which is a very hard thing when you're trying, you know, we had had several plateau years before I became in the role. So we really were focused on driving growth, but then if you have some big chunk that's leaving, um, uh, and ultimately you come to the agreement that yeah, this is nice, you go do this stuff other place. But it does send a message too that you can't, you know, we're not going to stand for that. So I think that's another way that instead of just talking it, you have to live it out and it's not easy, but um That

[22:10:749] Jeff: That that is impressive. I mean, I I I'll just say working with a lot of organizations, that is the hardest thing for them to do is to take someone who's bringing in bottom line by the numbers. Yeah. But saying, hey, we're holding you to a higher standard and having that conversation alone is tough, much less taking action and putting your money where your mouth is because I I truly believe that culture is, you know, it's the worst behavior that's tolerated. Right?

[22:36:739] Tim Lupinacci: Right. So Yeah. No, I totally agree. And and it was hard. I mean, but now, you know, now that's a couple years, whatever ago and then our we've had historic revenue the last three years continually increasing and that was, you know, at the time that was like, are we gonna are we gonna be okay with this? But that can't be the decision. It was unacceptable what this person was doing. So anyway, uh I agree that I agree with you that you got to live out the culture and you got to take those steps or else it's meaningless. The words you say are meaningless, right?

[23:03:409] Jeff: Yeah. I love that. And that, and that to me actually is that that word courage you said live that. That's awesome.

[23:12:109] Tim Lupinacci: Yeah. No, I mean, going into, I mean, going into that meeting, you know, the night before at a hotel room, you know, I'm like, it was like, this is this could go a lot of different ways. I was really, I mean, it it is. I mean, I think it and I'm not talking about Tim, but it does take courage to do that as a leader. Um, because you got to, I mean, you got to help your company thrive and if it's a big impact on that, um, it is a big deal, but I think you'll come through it on the positive end because people will see that you're living out your values. Um, so.

[23:41:569] Jeff: Tim, one last question. What's one behavior that you see every great leader do? Something you can see them do? What's that one behavior you'll see every great leader do?

[23:53:819] Tim Lupinacci: Um, well, you know, I I I think this is true and I've so um the leadership challenge by Kouzes and Posner Posner and Kouzes. Um they've said they've interviewed people like for 25 years asking what are the most admired traits in leaders? And number one year over year, any geography is honesty. And I think that comes back to, I mean it kind of circles back to what I've said earlier. I really do think being honest, being authentic, uh admitting mistakes. I think that honesty piece is so critical. Um, um, I mean there's a lot of like caring and being genuine, but I think being honest and um, I think I think I've seen that as a pretty important trait to the great leaders.

[24:32:719] Jeff: Great answer. You talk a little bit about upcoming projects. I think you were you've been working on a book. Maybe you could share about about that a little bit real quick.

[24:40:349] Tim Lupinacci: Yeah, so uh it's called Everybody Leads. Uh again, I forgot the nonprofit, but this whole idea that um whether you have a title or, you know, corner office or um, you know, no matter where you are in your journey, you are a leader because you're influencing people and you're impacting people just the people you're around, whether it's in the community, you know, church, synagogue, uh at your office, um, you know, fast food restaurant, uh you you are impacting and influence people. So it's some real practical tips to try to tell us how can we get better at being uh, you know, a leader and it's through with a lot of these ideas we've talked about today and just examples of colleagues. So it's coming out in June, so I'm real excited about that and uh, um, so we'll see, we'll launch it into the world.

[25:21:309] Jeff: Awesome. Anything else you want to share or plug or people reach out to find you? Any info information on that?

[25:28:119] Tim Lupinacci: No, I mean, I'm at Baker Donaldson.com, which is our firm, you can find me there and LinkedIn. Feel free I'd love to connect and uh I did remember the Eric Lawson book is the Splendid and the Vile. So, there you go. If you're looking for that.

[25:39:749] Jeff: Awesome. Uh, well, thank you so much, Tim. Thank you for your time. It's been a real honor and a pleasure talking to you. I think I I I'm actually going to steal this courage acronym and play with it a little bit. Um, but uh, really appreciate the time you you spent with us today.

[25:54:199] Tim Lupinacci: Uh, it's been great great, Jeff. Like I said, you're adding value to me uh often, so it's great to get to do this with you live.

[26:00:339] Jeff: Awesome. Awesome. To our listeners, thank you so much. Thanks for sticking with us. I hope you enjoyed this and all the other episodes we're putting out for you. Um, Love is a business strategy, the book. We have a uh at the time of this episode airing, I believe our second edition should be out. So we have a new second edition out on shelves. Please go check that out and support us. We appreciate it. Um, and with that, we're going to be seeing you in two weeks. Thank you everybody for tuning in. Have a good one. (Outro Music)