Greg Giuliano  
You can't make anybody change. You can't transform another person. You can create an environment where they want to engage and be a part of the change, and they're willing to change.

Jeff Ma  
Hello and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host. Jeff, ma and as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories from real people about real business in real life. My guest today is Dr Greg Giuliano, and Greg is an advisor and executive coach to senior leaders and teams all over the world. He's the founder of GA Ultra leadership, designing leadership team and team, sorry, designing leadership and team development strategies that drive organizational transformation. His mission is to help leaders and teams grow their capacity to enable positive disruption for markets, organizations, teams and individuals. And in following that mission, Greg has authored three, number one Amazon bestsellers, coaching for change, the next normal and ultra leadership. And I'm happy to have Greg here on the show with me today to discuss all things leadership. Greg, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm great. Jeff, thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate it absolutely. And one thing, before we dive into all the all things in your book and all things in your life, I wanted to ask a simple starting question, which is, Greg, what is your passion and how did you find it?

Greg Giuliano  
Wow, I think my passion is being creative in, you know, in service of our our experience. So what? What's the creativity that we can bring to our experience as individuals, to our experience as as being part of a team and being in an organization. So the passion is that that creativity then unlocks things for folks if we take a creative approach. So I think that's my passion. I love being creative in service of people awesome, and that shows up in definitely your books. What else do you how do you channel that creativity yourself nowadays? So all kinds of, you know, strange ancillary habits and activities that I do. So I dabble in music, and I draw from time to time, and I love to write, right? So that's an outlet for me, and I like to find create experiences that we gather with friends or family or with the teams that I support, and just find creative ways for us to have a different kind of an experience that unlocks our thinking and helps us have a richer and deeper experience

Jeff Ma  
awesome. And I know obviously the inevitable topic will be around leadership. And I wanted to start off with, I guess, a more high level kind of starting point around how you view leadership. I know that's a very broad question, but I was hoping you could start off with like, how you define leadership, or what's important when it comes to leadership for you, 

Greg Giuliano  
yeah, so I mean, I've studied, read so many books on leadership, and there's lots of different ways to define it, and for me, it boils down to the capacity, a willingness and a desire and an ability to enable positive transformation for a person, for a team, for for an organization that a manager can Run the day to day, but leaders, leadership creates incremental change, right? That there's something that didn't exist before, and it's and it now. It exists, that it's it's something new. It's not just keeping a wheel turning, but it's like, oh, look, what do we want to do? So that's how I boil it down. My job as a leader is to enable positive transformation, and the positive part is important, because it's one thing to be, you know, to a catalyst for change, but it needs to be positive change, positive transformation. We don't just do change for change sake. It what? What's the what? What's the reason for it? And is it positive? Does. Does it help the person to grow? Does it help the business to move forward? The transformation has to be positive. So it has to be designed, right? We design it so, so in those three words, enable positive transformation. There's a lot underneath that, in terms of how do what's the skill, what's the mindset I need, what are the skills that I need and what are the tools that I can rely on in order to enable positive transformation for the org, for the team and for the people, each individual on the team, I love that. I love that you tied change and transformation into this role, because at the end of the day, 

Jeff Ma  
I agree. We're all everything's changing. We have to be keeping up with it. We have to be transforming and in a positive way, like you mentioned. I I feel like a lot of leaders consider this something that they are doing well, but I also think that some of them, there's a lot of different ways they're approaching it. And you mentioned positive impact for people, and you kind of said and and and positive impact for the business, or the outcomes. And sometimes, at least in some cases, leaders are kind of creating what they consider positive outcomes for the business at the cost of negative impacts for people. Is that something you've seen as well? How does that? How does that right? 

That's why we have job security, right? Because things are out of balance that they people get into a position of leadership and they think my job is to drive business results. And I go in and I say, I want to help you build effectiveness at scale. How do you help build leadership and team effectiveness at scale? And it's not for its own sake. It's because I want to help you achieve your business objectives, whatever they are, right? So you have revenue targets, you've got all kinds of different metrics, how you're measuring business success, but at the end of the day, you can't just focus on driving those results, because it's if you're out of balance, there's going to be a churn that's associated that with right? So I know some folks that they're on a team where it's just drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, and you know what? The attrition rate on those teams are terrible, right? They, you know, people are leaving every day, or they're quiet quitting, right? They're quitting, but they're not leaving. They just kind of hang out, right? So it causes people to disengage, feel disempowered, deactivated and and so you end up it's too much churn and too much turmoil. And then there are some other teams where it's the opposite, where they get that, oh yeah, we want to, just want to take care of people, and it's a great team. They love one another, they hold hands, they sing songs, but they don't get anything done. And so how do you create balance? I want you to achieve your business objectives. But I want, I'm hoping, that you will recognize that to achieve those business objectives, you have to take care of the people, right? You and I were talking beforehand that that the role of the leader, if you're going to enable positive transformation, you can't make anybody change. You can't transform another person. You can create an environment where they want to engage and be a part of the change, and they're willing to change, but you can't make change. You can create that space where they're willing to change, and that means you got to show up in a different way. It's not just dictating and telling people what to do. It's really showing up with empathy and curiosity and remembering that if you are a leader, your job is to serve the team, to take care of those people. It's not a machine. It's a bunch of human beings showing up. How do you help them show up and be their best and do their best? And that's a that's a shift in mindset for a lot of leaders who came up in a very traditional command and control kind of an organization, perhaps, and they just they're used to telling people what to do, and that's why I wrote the latest book. Because a lot of leaders think that that's their job. You know, tell people what to do and and and then watch them. And we think it's time for folks to, you know, remember that you serve the team. Show up with empathy, show up with curiosity and make the shift from being that traditional manager to a coach who enables the positive transformation of their people and the teams and ultimately the organization.

I love that, and I have it brings about a cure. Curiosity for me, because when I think of the type of person, what you're saying and what I'm hearing is that the the job of a leader like you said, you can't change others. So it's really about influence and influencing others and creating an environment that that that they can then transform in themselves. So to me, that takes a certain type of skill set or person or quality, and you know, you mentioned command and control, you know that that is kind of the old school way of looking at, you know, structure and leadership. And in a sense, it that calls for a completely different skill set. And we used to take like the best worker on the assembly line and make them the right the head of that assembly line. Now they're the boss. But today, you know, we we understand that that that's the set of skills needed for the leader is different than just being the best at that job. It's actually a completely different set of skills around dealing with people and dealing with with humans. So I guess my question is, is this something that everybody has the capacity to do? Is this something that, if somebody who was the best assembly line worker and is now the boss, is this, is there a surefire way that that person can achieve kind of this influential leader status, or is this something that we have to rethink altogether, how it's, how it's structured and how we put it together? 

Greg Giuliano  
Yeah, I mean, it's, I think anybody can lead if they have a desire to, and they're willing to develop that skill set and that mindset, that my job isn't to be the expert problem solver for the team, that everything comes through me and from me, that my job is to unlock the talent on the team, because at the end of the Day, that team owns all the deliverables. If I'm the leader of the team, my job is to help them to deliver what the team is accountable for. So that's not telling them what to do. It's the Hey, this is our work as a team. It's your work team. Because I'm probably, unless I'm the CEO, I'm on somebody else's team. In addition to running a team. I'm on somebody else's team, so I have deliverables to that team. So team, here's what's yours. How can I help? Right? So point them in the right direction, and then be available to coach them and help them and trust that the team has the talent, right, the knowledge and the skill and the resources to deliver what they've said, we'll be accountable for this. But I think anybody could do it if they want to right our kind of the default unconscious setting in our organizations is, if somebody is great, either great, they're great marketer, or they're a great, you know, financial analyst, right? How do we reward them? Well, give them a little more money and we'll, we'll promote them into a manager role. We don't even ask them, Hey, do you want to do that? Right? And then if we do do that, we throw them into it. And there's how do we help them? You know, make that pivot. Make that shift from individual contributor who's awesome at this function to now your job is taking care of these people, and they're left to their own devices a lot and and what they do is they, they follow the lessons of their manager a lot of times, and a lot of times that the way that their manager did things is just it. You know, it might have worked for a moment, but even today, you know, I, you know those, those earlier models of, how do you manage a team and lead a team? There's a there's a shelf life for those things, and they don't take people into account. And so we never developed the skills to take care of a group of people and help them be a high performing team, whatever their definition of high performance is.

Jeff Ma  
So what does it take, you know, like you said, you know, we never give them the tools, or we never give them the skills needed. What does that actually look like, in your experience, to take somebody through that process of transformation, like, what does it require of the business and of the person to actually get to a leader?

Greg Giuliano  
 Well, I think it's, I mean, in any development, you know, we get to a certain age and we stop, we stop growing physically, but we can, we'll stop growing intellectually if we're not intentional about it. So you know, growth happens naturally, but our development, our cognitive mental development, that takes intention, so helping the person develop that capacity for you. Wanting to learn right and build that muscle to be a learner, not a knower, right? I want to learn things, and I think the foundation for leadership we talked about a couple of minutes ago. I want to enable positive transformation for others. I need to be on a path of enabling my positive transformation. How am I on a path of continuous improvement and development as a as a leader? So I want to know what leaders, if they're if they're a leader, they've stepped into that. My starting point is, what do you want people to say about you when you're not around? What's the impact that you hope you are making. And I asked them to do a simple activity with me where I want them to fill in the blanks and be able to say, I'm a blank leader who helps others blank, right? So they get that in their head, that everywhere in the organization, that that's true, that that that statement is the impact that they want to make with other people in the organization. And then the next step is, well, is it true? Is that statement true for you, or is it still 100% aspirational, and invite them onto the into that developing self awareness? Because that's the starting point that I need leaders. I want leaders to be conscious. This is who I am. This is what I want to be. This is the impact I want to have. Because that, that that consciousness, that authenticity, that they get from being conscious, being awake, uh, translates into a desire to be connected to others, right? If I'm conscious and I'm engaging you from a place of consciousness, that's where that that creates space for empathy, and then empathy turns into right, when it's activated, it becomes compassion, and I'm engaging so I recognize, as I become more conscious, I'm more connected to other people, and my job as a leader is to be conscious and connected, and that recognizing that connection turns into a real concern for other people. So I'd see that as foundational that so the leaders that I work with, I want to, I want to check out how conscious are they? Are they self aware what, you know, what? So that, and does that translate into wanting to have connections with other people? And does that translate into concern for other people?

Jeff Ma  
Have you ever encountered? I guess, situations where that human is just simply unable to become consciously connected,

Greg Giuliano  
so they're not very self aware. And then when we start to open the door and have conversations that could grow that awareness, they're just not. They're not at a place in their life where they're open to it. It's like, you know, no, this is just how I am. Like, well, yeah, but that's a choice. You could change that. No, and so we probably don't work together for a long time, because, okay, they're not, they're not really coachable. You have to be, you know, recognize I'm doing okay. I want to do better, right? That's, I think, the difference between, I used to be a therapist, now a coach. You know, the starting point is different. Therapy, something's broken and and let's fix it. Coaching. There's nothing wrong. I don't, I don't like doing remedial coaching, where, Hey, Greg, we got a problem with this person. They're this way or that way. Can you fix that? It's like, that's not coaching, that's performance management. Go, go. Manage that you got bad performance. Give them some feedback, put them on, you know, IDP and but coaching is, I'm doing pretty good. I want to do better. And so if they're not in that space, then they're not ready for coaching.

Jeff Ma  
Greg, I'm curious, as we balance kind of we've been talking about this one side of the self awareness. We've been talking about how the builds to empathy and curiosity, compassion, all these things, which I'm 100% with you. Of course,I know that when it comes to the almost what feels like the other side of the equation, which I don't think it is, but when we talk about the element of business and accountability and work output and things like that, I think there's a lot of narrative out there, a lot of misconception, a lot of different perspectives around what a, let's say, loving leader or caring leader, empathetic leader looks like, and what that that should be. And what I mean is that leaders often find feel that, you know, the compassionate, caring kind of approach is so. Soft or a doormat or not able to hold others accountable. And whereas business requires that that harder side of the equation, what's your take on that? And how do you kind of unravel the synergy between those two things?

Greg Giuliano  
 Yeah, so anybody comes in, so it's funny, we do, we run a program called be a great coach in organizations, and we and somebody will invariably say, well, coaching feels all like touchy feely, and I'm just, you know, just being a cheerleader, or just, you know, you're just kind of helping, helping people, and we've got to get stuff done. And and I and so I completely, I say, You know what? I understand where you're coming from. And I'm just saying that's BS that that being a loving leader, being an empathetic and compassionate leader, doesn't mean that you're not, you know, reminding people of their accountability. In fact, just the opposite. If I care about you the best believe for me to care about you and demonstrate that is, I want you to have the best experience possible and achieve what your very best as you define it. And so I'm going to engage with you to demonstrate my concern for you, to help remind you of your accountabilities, because that's part of your experience. So in coaching, we can start with, Hey, what's going on? What do you what? What do you trying to achieve? What? What you know? What are your options? And where a lot of coaching kind of falls off and is as not as effective. And probably this is why some folks don't think coaching. Think it takes too long or it's not effective, is because they missed that final piece of what the ICF calls contracting for completion. So yeah, we had a nice conversation. So now, what are you going to do? What's the plan and what's the next step, and who's your accountability partner, and helping people move from idea to action in a way that they know what their best next step is, and they've got a plan to take it, and they've said it out loud to you, so part of your demonstrating concern and care is, I'm gonna I'll be your accountability partner. I will remind you that you said you were gonna do x by this date, and that, and the way I care, show I care for you, is I'm gonna be your accountability partner. I'm gonna remind you you don't have to do it, because I'm not telling you to do it. I'm reminding you. You said you're going to do this. If I don't care about you, I'm not going to be your accountability partner. We talk about it part of our coaching. Sometimes, when you're coaching, you have to give feedback to people, and we don't like we don't like giving feedback, sometimes we don't like getting feedback. But I think feedback, it's become trite to say, oh, feedback is a gift. It truly is, and I think it's a gift, and it's a way to demonstrate that I care about you, because there's only a handful of people in my life who care about me enough to give me feedback, hard feedback, right? I need somebody in my life who cares about me enough to tell me when I have spinach in my teeth. You might not tell me I have spinach in my teeth when we are we're in a meeting or lunch, because you don't care that much about me. I'm just somebody that you know casually, but if you're a really good friend of mine, you're going to say, Hey, Greg, you got spinach in your teeth, right? You're going to give me feedback that might make me an oh shoot, I gotta get uncomfortable. So that's a giving feedback to someone is a demonstration of concern and care, because if I don't care about you, I'm not going to make myself uncomfortable by giving you hard feedback. It's just easier for me to let it go. So if somebody says they want to give me some feedback that tells me that they care about me as a person.

Jeff Ma  
I love that perspective we I also say feedback as a gift, but I love how you've really, really doubled down on that in the sense of of it being only a few people in life that are willing to do that for you. And I think one of the reasons I  see feedback getting such a bad rap is also that I think the intentions of the person giving feedback is often lost in translation, and in some cases, it's it's accurately misplaced. I mean, sometimes, if you know a boss, will you know, by definition, have to give, you know, quote, unquote, feedback to the subordinate or the the team member and and they may not be doing it out of care or out of compassion. It's really more of, I'm annoyed that you keep messing up. So here's, here's your. Feedback? 

Yeah, I want to live. I want to create. I have a criticism, right? I don't like that, right? That's subjective versus, you know, I think feedback happens best in the context of a coaching conversation. What are you trying to achieve? Okay, well, where are you stuck? And then it's okay. Well, how are you contributing to the status quo and see if there's self aware. It's another way to check self awareness, right? And okay, if they don't see, it's like, Hey, can I tell you what I'm noticing, right? And get permission so you can say, here's what I saw. So it's not just I didn't like it, it's I saw you do x in this meeting. And what do you think the impact of that was with the folks in the meeting, or here or here, was the impact with me? And what could you do differently moving forward? Do you think that's something you need to change? You know, I think, if I'm your manager, I could say I think it's something that you need to change. So what are some options that you have so, so it's all in the context of coaching to help them to have a different experience, right? To illuminate something that they might not be aware of, right? It's like, if I might not know I have spinach in my teeth, so you're illuminating something for me. So that kind of feedback in the context. Oh, I know what you're trying to achieve. Okay, so when you did that, that doesn't work. So what might you try this time? Right? So it that you, it's not something in between the two of you that now, now you're standing shoulder to shoulder, and you're, you're looking at something that is, is holding the person back and they weren't even aware of it, and and then they can, they can take it in, because it really demonstrates that you're on their side and you're you care enough about them to help them to see something that they didn't see before, become aware of it and Take some action in order to show up differently, and, but, and, but that's very different than I don't like that shirt,right? That that's not helpful,

Greg. I want to. I have so many more questions, but as I wind down, I can't help but want to ask you, just like, one more pointed thing. What's one behavior or action that you would see every great leader do? If you could just pick one behavior that you would see demonstrated in every great leader? What would that be?

Greg Giuliano  
Ask more questions. I don't think that we ask enough questions. I think that leaders make speeches, and I want them to stop. I was, I was in a coaching conversation today with a guy I coach, terrific leader and and he, he now goes to meetings with his team, and 99% of his interactions with the team now is simply asking questions, and if every leader just started doing that more, it will engage people. It will it empowers them. It communicates to them that you trust them, and you're just trying to help them solve their problems without taking ownership for any of their stuff. It's they still own it, right? So you're just asking questions. So I think any leader who wants to accelerate their career path and get or have their just even their current state with their team improve. Stop making speeches, stop telling people what to do and ask questions.

Jeff Ma  
I absolutely love that answer. Amazing. All right, Greg, last, last thing, tell me yours. I'm I am a blank leader that helps others blink. What? What is your what are your blanks? Greg, 

Greg Giuliano  
I right now. So it for a while. It's, I'm a creative leader who helps others see their potential and unlock and and accelerate to their to what they want. Yeah, so that that's mine. It's, I want to be as creative as possible to help people become aware and unlock themselves in order to achieve what they want to achieve. Awesome. And if people want to get in touch with you, is it LinkedIn? I believe a YouTube channel as well. Ultra leadership, yeah. So, so you can find me on LinkedIn. Feel free Connect. We do a week list, and we have our website is ultraleadership.com we have a YouTube channel, ultra leadership. So every week we post the newsletter on LinkedIn and videos on YouTube to help us all keep growing as leaders.And that's where you can you can find us, and if you grab a copy. So some of the stuff that we talked about today comes right from the new book that's on you can find it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, and there's a QR code in the book you scan that it takes you to a site where we have PDFs of all of our tools and frameworks that it's all Shareware and you can you can practice to your heart's content with showing up in a different way.

Jeff Ma  
I love it. I'll leave information about all that in the show notes here for for all the listeners. But in the meantime, Greg, really appreciate the time you spent and everything you've shared. It's been quite the journey.

Greg Giuliano  
Thank you, Jeff. I really appreciate it. I love what you're doing. 

Jeff Ma  
Awesome. Thank you to the listeners. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we will be seeing you in just about two weeks. Thanks for sticking around and check out Love as a Business Strategy. If you haven't yet with that, we'll be signing off. We'll see you'll see you.