Dan Tocchini
Nobody ever makes a dumb choice. So if you look up and you go, "Well, that was a stupid choice." Well, no, you just haven't taken on the mindset that makes that the best choice available.

Jeff Ma
Hello and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders tend to shy away from. And we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host, Jeff Ma, and as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories from real people about real business and real life. And my guest today is Dan Tocchini, and Dan has been helping leaders bring some magic to their teams for over 35 years. He's worked with executive teams from Interstate Batteries at ESPN to SmartyPants Vitamins and Impulse Space, as well as with nonprofits like Homeboy Industries and Defy Ventures. Dan gives a no-fluff approach by helping transform leadership teams without any magical pixie dust, just courageous leadership, creative conflict resolution, and relevant restructuring. No conversation is too difficult, no situation too conflicted because a leader with a vision can't be held hostage by circumstance or history. And I love that intro. I love that approach. So I'm very excited to have a chat here with Dan today. Dan, how are you?

Dan Tocchini
Well, thank you, Jeff. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. I what an honor, and I look forward to the conversation.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, and you know, gearing up to this in our early chats, I've already made it very clear, this is my favorite topic. So, I'm very, I'm very, no pressure, but this is my like, I conflict is just at the center of so much of everything we talk about and do. So, um, before we kick things off, I have to ask, Dan, what is your your your passion in life? What is your passion and and how did you find it?

Dan Tocchini
Well, um, my passion is the the ongoing deepening and developing of my family, the legacy of my family. Um, so, I started when my, I think it, you know, my mother was a manic depressive schizophrenic, so the family splintered when I was about, 12 is when my mother had her first episode. There are four of us, four kids and my parents. And, um, by the time I was 18, my parents had divorced and so, the breakup of that was something that was, um, etched pretty deep in me at the time, when right through my, you know, 12 to 18. And I remember just getting out of high school and out of college, through school, really wanted to form a family and, um, met my wife, been married with, been been with her for 50 years, married to her for 45. And, uh, a lot of our work, you want to talk about conflict when you have a diverse family with diverse interests and so on, you get a lot of practice at, um, navigating conflict and and, you know, to the best possible outcome you put, you know, you for everybody. That's, that's the challenge. So, plenty of work right here at home. I call it homework, you know, we get to do it. So,

Jeff Ma
That's beautiful. I mean, completely connected to our topic. And so maybe building off of that a little bit. Um, what is your relationship with conflict? I I know you started with your family background, but as you kind of keep moving forward in life, what does conflict kind of meant to you? What brought you into this space of really talking this way about conflict?

Dan Tocchini
Um, well, I was, you know, I've been involved in a lot of really diverse work. So I work with kids coming out of gangs, uh, and I did that early on in my career here, developed a curriculum that's one of the most studied in America. Um, my work with doing mergers and acquisitions and turnarounds is has is directly related to conflict. In fact, one of the best lines I've ever seen is what, um, Jack Welch said. He said, you know, I know I've had a successful day when I can look up and see how many conflicted conversations I, you know, successfully navigated, then I know the ball's moving down the field.

Yeah. And and I just found that a lot of the work that we do with founders, and I do a lot of work with young founders, is around facing the things they keep trying to work around. You know, the saying I I use a lot is what you don't face now will eventually defeat you. And and so, and the quicker you face it, um, the prices are a lot, they're lower. The longer you wait, usually the greater the prices become. So,

Jeff Ma
Yeah, I love that.

Dan Tocchini
My grand, my grandfather, when I was a kid, I grew up, he said, you know, Junior, most conflict comes to you as a shiv. And, you know, it presents itself and you go, no, I don't want to eat that. And so you push it away and then it comes back as a shit sandwich. And if you push, and if you push that away, it comes back as a two course meal, and if you push that away, well, you have a shit buffet. And I've been called into a lot of buffets, but it's all, because most people don't want to deal with it when it's a, you know, in fact, a lot of, a lot of founders I've worked with, business owners will tend to just not pay attention to the little things and then wonder later down later down the road, why am I in such a big mess and seems like I have to do so much to turn this around.

Yeah. And if you, you know, if you do a decent inquiry, you can go back to find out where the ordu was that they refused to eat. And how that grew, you know. So,

Jeff Ma
And I think, I think that's, that's so key in, in, I fully believe in that as well. We call it choose your hard. Because people think there's an easy, people think there's an easy, but there's never an easy, there's a hard and there's a harder. And usually the hard is right in front of you and the harder is later. So, Yeah. Absolutely. I, I love the, the imagery that yours brings up as well though, of this buffet, buffet of.

Dan Tocchini
I like choose the hard too. When I'm working with the, I'm always nervous about saying it. I'm always nervous about saying it. might offend somebody, but you know, sometimes we need to be a little offended to get our heads on right, as a matter of fact.

Jeff Ma
Sure. Yeah, if any listeners had problem with that word, well, we're in conflict now and we know, we're gonna have to work it out. There you go. So. Um, but you kind of hit on one of the key things that I find very passionate about conflict is that conflict itself is inherently not a bad thing. Correct? Like conflict can be healthy and is necessary. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Dan Tocchini
Yeah, it normally what it means is, so if you have conflict, generally what it means is there are different sets of interest at the table. And they could be complete, you could actually have aligned interests, but you might even, you might have conflict over how to meet those interests. So there's different levels. So once if you and I are doing something together and we both agreed that this is what we want to get done and this is what we're aiming at, well you and I might have a conflict just about how we're going to get that done. And then that's a matter and then breaking that down is a matter of inquiry, you know, I, I like one of the things I do when I work is I get really curious about as much as I can understand about the context of a situation. And try to put words on it so that people can, when when you've got a conflict, people don't generally understand what the conflict is, they just feel it. And I'll give you an example. I was doing a, I was doing a training in, uh, South Africa in, uh, Stellenbosch. It's in outside of, um, Cape Town. And, um, there was a Zulu and a Tosa, there's 10 different tribes, 10 different languages in, uh, with all the different tribes in, in, uh, South Africa. And I was asked to attend to see if I could help navigate this upset. It was over a piece of property, uh, between a Tosa and a Zulu. And when I listened to them talk, they were, it was really contentious fast. And when I listened, when I just was listening to how they were talking to each other, I noticed that the Tosa was very to the point, very very clear about what he wanted, what it looked like, how he thought it should go. And the Zulu was very metaphorical because in the Zulu culture, they they speak in metaphors. So, you know, he might say something, the Tosa might say something like, "Well, you know, the property line ends actually at the end of that hill and it goes across here and that post over there represents it. I'd like to make sure that's documented." And the Zulu would say, "Ah, yes, but let's be sure that the sun rises on on it in in the same way that we would both want." And you know, he's talking metaphorically, something like that. And then the Tosa would get suspicious because he couldn't get in his mind a straight answer from the Zulu. And the Zulu would get upset because he would hear the Tosa and he would say, "You do not trust me? Do you, you think I am not a man of my word?" Right? And and so, as it escalated, I I stopped them and had them notice this difference and invited them to to give each other the kind of break they would want from each other. Like, if you want to be understood, then try to, let's, you know, I said to the Tosa, why don't we just understand what this man means when he says that. And so as we broke that down, he could hear, oh, he meant exactly what I said, he just said it a different way. And that they tended to and then they began to relax and then when when the Zulu realized that the Tosa wasn't impuning his dignity or his honor, but that he was simply didn't understand what he was saying and getting frustrated because he kept repeating it because he didn't believe he, he didn't understand what what the Zulu was saying, but the Zulu thought he understood and didn't believe him. Right? And that those little connections came together, we we made the deal no problem. And it was interesting, the lady who asked me to do it was in this training I was doing, she said, how did, that's amazing. Now they're friends. I said, really, it's not that amazing. It's just a matter of listening. And a lot of breakdowns can be resolved like that. And I I actually use a, when I listen, I use a very specific way of listening. Um, and that is first understanding the context. In this case was the the division of this property and how it would go about. That's the context. And then I started listening to patterns and I noticed the pattern, you know, one was metaphorical, the other one was literal. And that was a pattern that was going on, that pattern was causing tension. And so then I could notice what each one was emphasizing and each one was omitting and they, you know, the Tosa was was emphasizing clarity and because he couldn't get the kind of clarity he expected, he had, he was suspicious and his tone was indicating suspicion, but he wasn't speaking to it. He was omitting that conversation. So, when I opened up that conversation, what he was omitting, he go, "Oh yeah, I guess I am a little suspicious. I don't understand what he's saying." And vice versa with the Zulu. So, by listening to the pattern, noticing the emphasis and then inquiring into what was omitted, was able to bring some understanding to the table and they resolved it themselves. I really didn't have to do much work.

Jeff Ma
I love that story and and it really highlights, I think, that for me, personally, it really highlights this idea that conflict needs to be kind of addressed head on to put it for lack of better word, uh, for basically being able to speak the thing that was omitted, to be able to say those things and and have that conversation about the conversation and about how we're feeling and thinking, all those things that we omit because in my experience, there's this idea that conflict, this feeling that people, especially at the workplace need to avoid conflict and reduce conflict and minimize conflict. In fact, sometimes when you come to conflict resolution, they're really just, like their only goal is to just, a lot of conflict resolution techniques are just to just get everybody to calm down and then go on their separate ways, but the conflict still remains.

Dan Tocchini
Well, you bring up a great point. And um, I had the the honor of attending the Harvard Negotiation Project at in, at Harvard, and one of the things they're really, they really kind of drill into you is that um, many conflicts have to mature before they can be resolved. You've got to, you've got to let them kind of ripen so that the issues come to the surface and people are ready to deal with it. A lot of times people aren't ready to engage it. They want to avoid it, they think they've got more room. And you know, it goes along with what I've learned about human being and motivation, human beings myself included and most motivation which is that um, people are seven times more motivated, oh excuse me, five times more motivated. The research shows people are five times more motivated to prevent something awful or hurtful from happening than they are to have something they would enjoy happen. So, you and I might go, hey, this looks great. And let's, let's, you know, let's talk about it, let's do it. Let's go do this. But if something comes up, we are more apt to not do it if it doesn't represent saving us some pain. We'll tend to give up faster. But if we, if we understand the pain it'll bring us if we do give up or if we don't go forward, we'll be more motivated to go forward.

Yeah. And so, and and that's probably the biggest conversation to your point that people try to avoid is they want to reduce the suffering or the potentiality for suffering rather than really indulge it and understand how bad it can get because that can be a, that's a powerful motivator to find a resolution, to get more curious, to understand each other's interests, not just your own, but the other parties, etc. how they might fit together and so on and so forth.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, beautiful. And and like just like your your buffet from earlier, you're saving yourself numerous future encounters, conflicts and disagreements by by by addressing it at its core level now, you can come to an understanding that then repairs and potentially enhances those interactions going forward. So you're like doubly benefiting.

Dan Tocchini
Yeah. I I just, in fact today, I'm in the middle of negotiating a, um, contract with a client and my team pointed out, "Hey, look, you forgot to up the percentage here. Remember we upped it two more percent. We get some, we get some equity along with cash." And, uh, because we added something into the contract. And I said, "Oh yeah, I'll get on that. I'll correct it and call the client." And one of my partners said, said, "Oh no, you know, we don't need to upset." I go, "No, no, we need, the upset's a lot less now than if we get down the road three weeks and we go, oh yeah, that's 8%, remember, not six." And and so he goes, "Yeah, you're right." you know, and I just send it over with, "Hey, we made a mistake. Remember we talked about this, boom." Now if it comes up, it comes up, big deal. Well, that'll be great because it can deepen the relationship if they're suspicious about it, then it'll be a chance for us to open the kimono and just talk about what's there, you know?

Jeff Ma
I love it. I love it. We we use it like we tangibly use it to be like, we'll have moments in our conversations where we say, let's be the buffalo. We always have to remind each other to be the buffalo. Have you heard this?

Dan Tocchini
No.

Jeff Ma
So, so there's this concept, and forgive me if I haven't fact checked this is scientifically true, but the concept is that when when a storm comes rolling across the plains, cows will run away from it, whereas buffalo will run into it. And because the buffalo knows that by running straight through it, they'll get out of it sooner and drier than the cow who spends the entire day running with it and in it. So, Yeah. it's, it reminds me of that concept of when you face these things of just being the buffalo, you know what, you just got to, you got to go into it. You got to get in the storm.

Dan Tocchini
I did, I did. Once you started telling, I have heard that. It's, it's a good one. Yeah, I like that. That's, I'm gonna use that a lot. I remember hearing it a while ago, a long time ago. It makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

Jeff Ma
I love it. I love it. Well, Dan, um, I'm I'm seriously debating making this a one-hour episode, but unfortunately, they're typically around 20. So, with that, I've run out of time on this my favorite topic already, and I've already gotten a lot out of it though, so I really appreciate the time you've spent. Thank you so much for for joining and sharing and um, help people understand if they want to get in touch or learn more from you, where could they, where can they find out more and learn from you more?

Dan Tocchini
If you go to our website, which is um, takewground.com and there's a bunch of, there's a free, uh, I wrote a ebook called the change imperative, which I wrote it when I was um, many years ago, I was involved in the merger or you know, the when Disney Body SPN and I wrote it to help the managers make changes because there was a lot of conflict that was up. And so it's called the change imperative. that basically change is an imperative. It's your gravity. That's free on the site. It's 90 page ebook and it'll give you a pretty good, I think, strong what you can anticipate when you make a change and ways to think about change that will help you get through it in a way that's beneficial. Um, we also have a podcast called the Naked Leadership podcast. Now, we have suspended making them. There's 200 episodes, five years worth, uh, my partners and I and we've had a lot of, I just got a gift in the email. We haven't done a podcast in nine months, but somebody just loved it so much, they sent me like 20 avocados on their avocado tree out of nowhere. I just just opened it up. But um, you know, that that's uh, that's available. And then we have um, we do consulting services. You can see our team and the services we have. We do a couple of public and we do a leadership training called the Revenant process, which goes deep. It's a four-day intensive. Uh, we tell people don't have anything else to do during those four days. We're doing one in June. And then we have a leadership Academy that goes over a 60-day period, three separate weekends, homework in between, we coach you coaching somebody else. We work on leadership, put you in front of a camera. We do that once a year and that starts in in August. All that's on the website.

Jeff Ma
Awesome.

Dan Tocchini
And you can and you can find me on LinkedIn if you feel like it.

Jeff Ma
Sure, as always, yes. Dan, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your knowledge and wisdom. It's been amazing. To our listeners, as always, appreciate you as well. So if you keep tuning in, we'll keep bringing in great guests like Dan. And make sure you check out our book, loveisabusinessstrategy.com, uh, and yeah, tune in every two weeks, we're here. So, we'll see everybody next time and thanks again to our guest. Have a good one.