Jeff Ma: Hello and welcome to Love as a Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about all things business, but we want to tackle some topics that some leaders might shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host, Jeff Ma, and as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories about how real people in real businesses operate in real life. Joining me today is Bruce Mayhew, a veteran leadership coach and the president of Bruce Mayhew Consulting. Bruce is a former Scotiabank leader who now helps organizations master the human side of business—everything from time management to email etiquette and all that good stuff. He recently distilled his years of experience into his debut book, *The Path of an Inspired Leader*, which is all about creating conditions where teams can truly thrive. So, I'm excited to break a lot of that down today with you. Thank you so much for being here, Bruce. How is it going?

 

Bruce Mayhew: It's going really great. Spring is coming along; I'm up here in Canada, so I'm starting to unthaw. So, I'm really happy.

 

Jeff Ma: Awesome. I want to kick us off with my favorite question for anybody, which is: what is your passion in life, and how did you find it?

 

Bruce Mayhew: I would say, weirdly—or maybe not weirdly—I would say my passion is reading and exploring ideas. I would say I came across it by accident. I was a terrible reader when I was a kid. I hated reading. Then, suddenly, as an early adult, I started realizing how much information, thought, creativity, and amazingness is out there in all these books, and I started getting hungry for it. It's been a never-ending journey since.

 

Jeff Ma: Awesome. I love that. Same. I did not like reading growing up at all. If you told me as a kid that I would be writing a book one day, I would have called you a liar.

 

Bruce Mayhew: I'm right there with you.

 

Jeff Ma: So, congratulations on your new book. Can we start there? I actually want to hear a little bit about what that book is all about.

 

Bruce Mayhew: Sure. It's a book that I had been thinking about for about ten years. Right out of the gate, I kind of knew what I wanted the book to be. I wanted it to be a one-stop shop for leaders or potential leaders to go and get some information on "How do I...?" and then fill in the blank. So: how do I hire someone? How do I let someone go? How do I inspire a team? How do I create collaboration within a team? How do I have a difficult conversation?

 

That's what I wanted the book to be: a single voice sharing a whole bunch of different environments that a leader might find themselves in, to give the leader confidence to go out and do it themselves. Because I remember being a leader early on, and I had the position, I had the title, but there was a whole lot of things that I had never done before. I had never hired someone before. I had never had to hold somebody accountable for missing a deadline. What I wanted to do was give somebody those tools so they could take the first couple steps and be confident in what they were going to do. And that's what the book is all about.

 

Jeff Ma: I love it. That's awesome. With all of that knowledge compacted together and the time we have today, the part that stood out to me the most—the part I want to dig in with you today in filling that blank in—is: how do I have difficult conversations? That is one of the most popular questions in my circle, especially when we're talking about something like love or just leadership in general with humanity at its center. Difficult conversations is humanity at its—I guess, depending on how you look at it—at its finest and at its worst.

 

Bruce Mayhew: Certainly at its most vulnerable.

 

Jeff Ma: Difficult conversations. So, let's kick that off a little bit. I'd love to hear your starting opening primer on what you mean when you say "difficult conversation."

 

Bruce Mayhew: So, I see difficult conversations as being different than conflict. Difficult conversations are the awkward conversations. They're the tough conversations. They might be embarrassing conversations. But they're not conflict. I believe that if we don't have the difficult conversation, they bubble up to become conflict more than likely.

 

But "difficult" is holding me accountable for when I miss a deadline, or helping me see when I acted incorrectly, or missed helping somebody else out and giving them positive reinforcement and making the team better. So, difficult conversations are about aligning and supporting more than holding blame. Blame, for me, should never be part of a difficult conversation. That's a no-brainer for me; it's completely off the table.

 

Jeff Ma: Speaking of that, since you've highlighted one thing that's off the table, I guess a lot of conversations can be difficult, including conversations of blame or frustration and feelings and all that. What *should* be had, and is there any type of conversation that should be avoided or not tackled when it's too difficult in that way?

 

Bruce Mayhew: Well, I think any conversation is possible, especially at the early stages. So, I think at the early stages, everything's on the table that I can think of. The question is: am I being respectful and am I trustworthy?

 

I believe that you and I, as an example, we need to prepare for a difficult conversation long before that difficult conversation happens. Because if you and I just met each other today, and we knew that we were going to work on a project for the next two weeks or two months or two years, I believe that one of our first conversations should be: "Hey Jeff, I expect you and I are going to have a difficult conversation at some point. We're going to disagree on something. We're going to see something differently. I'm going to hurt your feelings with something that I said; you're going to hurt my feelings with something that you said."

 

Whatever that situation is going to be, we're going to have a situation where one of us is going to feel uncomfortable at some point. And I would say, right out of the gate, let's have that conversation when it happens. Let's not sweep it under the rug. Let's trust each other enough to have that conversation. So here I am, Jeffrey, the first day that I'm meeting you, I'm going to invite you to please have that conversation with me, and I would like your permission to have that conversation with you. Are we okay?

 

And that, I think, sets up a level of expectation where when you do approach me, or when I do approach you and say, "Hey Jeff, there's something I saw that I would like to have a conversation with you about," that you don't go into the defensive. That instead, you go into the inquisitive and go, "Oh Bruce, what is it that you want to talk about?" And you stay present, and you don't have to put up all kinds of defenses. But if I surprise you, and you're not ever expecting it, you don't know how I'm going to handle it, and so you automatically put up defenses. And so that's one of the things—that's why I think pretty much any conversation, as long as you and I have trust with each other, we should be able to talk about pretty much anything.

 

Jeff Ma: I love that idea of being able to have those types—the way you just described it is ideal and sounds great. I'm curious about—it immediately evokes feelings of courage needed. There's a fear that's built in—I guess that's why they call it "difficult." Can you talk a little bit about that element of fear and the keys to overcoming that barrier? Because it's much easier to avoid those things, stick to pleasantries, surface-level stuff, and avoid these tougher, needed conversations. That's the path that many will choose more often than not. So, where do we find that courage and other elements alongside it to overcome that fear?

 

Bruce Mayhew: Sure. I think, especially based on what I was just sharing, I think our need for courage and to overcome fear becomes less of a requirement. It's less of a hill that we have to climb; it's a bump as opposed to a hill if we're able to face that early on. If we're able to set up expectations early, then I think the fear dissipates.

 

If we leave it so that a difficult conversation is going to be a surprise, that's when fear escalates. When I don't know how you're going to respond to me bringing up a topic, or if you don't know what I'm going to be like when I'm approaching you—am I going to be attacking you? Am I going to be blaming you? Am I going to hold you accountable in your promotion or in your salary?—your fear as the recipient is huge because you don't know how big of a deal I'm going to make this. And am I going to be personal to you? Like, am I going to personally attack you in this process?

 

So, I think we can reduce that fear and that anxiety really early if we build an expectation in advance and then model that behavior all the way along. Because you and I can have that conversation where we say, "Hey Jeff, you know, we're going to disagree sometime. I want to be able to come to you; I want you to come to me." We can have that conversation on day one. But then on day two and three and four and five and six, I've got to build trust with you that I'm respectful and that I'm thoughtful and that I'm creative and I'm all these other things that really might have nothing to do with a difficult conversation. So that when we have that difficult conversation, you're okay with it. But if I demonstrate backhandedness and untrustworthy behavior the day after you and I have that conversation, that's where the fear will come up because you no longer believe me when I said on day one, "Hey, I'd like to have really great, non-confrontational difficult conversations with you." You don't trust me on that anymore.

 

Jeff Ma: So it's rooted in having trust, and it sounds like it's rooted in having trust and also, by extension of that, it almost requires a level of relationship, is what I'm hearing.

 

Bruce Mayhew: Yeah. And it doesn't always have to have a deep relationship. Like, it doesn't mean that you and I have to work together every day for us to trust each other. But it could be—like, I trust my mechanic at the garage. And I only see them once every four months for an oil change or something of that nature. But the behavior that they demonstrate to me every time I pick up the phone and make an appointment, and every time that I'm sitting there in the waiting room, and every encounter that I have with them builds trust within me. That's going to make sure that when you and I have to have a difficult conversation, that I don't throw up my defenses and I believe what you're sharing with me. And when I believe what you're sharing with me, I now have a choice on how I adjust or don't adjust my behavior.

 

Jeff Ma: And I feel like there's some element of all this behavioral feedback that can get—I guess from my perspective, it can get very personal-feeling in a sense that, you know, if my trust in you is built through, I guess, consistency and expertise and not relationship, I might find it still very difficult to give behavioral feedback, right? Like, it would be easy to have—I guess it's no longer a difficult conversation to just talk about the dotting the I's and crossing the T's and things that have gone wrong tactically. But let's say a way you do things or something you say creates feelings for me or something that frustrates me, which is a difficult conversation to share with you. Is that possible without a deeper relationship from your perspective?

 

Bruce Mayhew: I think so, absolutely. And I would say, if I understood what you were sharing just now correctly, I think sharing with somebody that they need to adjust or do better when they cross their T's and dot their I's—those are still difficult conversations, I think. Those can be uncomfortable. I think any difficult conversation—I would say any conversation—is going to be personal. Like, I'm bringing myself to this conversation.

 

So I think every conversation we should—we need to accept that there's going to be a personal element to it. And I would say that that's the one mistake that I see—well, perhaps that's the second biggest mistake that I see happening within a difficult conversation—is that, for example, me as a leader, I take out the personal and I stay just with the technical. So I stay with the: "Hey, our policy is A, B, and C, and you missed policy C, and therefore we need to fill out paperwork D, and you and I can come up to this agreement and we'll measure it this way. Thumbs up, Bruce?"

 

And that's very bureaucratic. It's very policy-driven. It's very legal, perhaps. But it doesn't deal with the individual as a person at all. And if we are expecting somebody to grow and develop and to change, we have to engage their person, their individuality, their uniqueness, and help the person grow and change. So I believe the best solution to any difficult conversation—and frankly, within any conflict conversation, so if it actually goes to that depth—I believe every resolution, I have to accept and we have to find a way to engage both the practical and the humanity in the individual so that we can change in lockstep. I need to bring Bruce's uniqueness to the table if I'm going to help Bruce grow and adjust.

 

Jeff Ma: Yeah. So what might that conversation look like instead? The example you gave where you did A, B, or C wrong—how might that look instead?

 

Bruce Mayhew: Sure. I would go back to the individual and I would say, "Hey Bruce, I see that you were late bringing in this report. And what I'd like to do is find a way for you and I to work together so that this report comes in on time every Friday. So, can you tell me—can you talk to me about why this report was late this Friday, and is there anything that you and I need to do together to set you up for better success so that next Friday and the following Fridays after that, you're able to meet the Friday deadline? So what I'd like to do, Bruce, is have a conversation with you and say: how can we do better?"

 

And now I'm actually involving Bruce into the solution. But again, I'm not blaming Bruce for any of it. I'm looking to see how we can adjust. Now, Bruce might say, "You know, I recognize my Fridays are a problem because I have to pick up my kids from daycare at 3 o'clock, and so my day is actually stunted a little bit. So if I had the report on Wednesday instead of Thursday, then I would be able to adjust and give you your feedback by the Friday due date."

 

So Bruce would be able to bring in his personality, his humanity, and together you could find a solution. But if all I do is wave my finger at him and say, "How are you going to get this in on Friday? And Bruce, that was bad," Bruce is getting scared now, and it goes back to that fear issue. And it's unlikely that you're actually going to find a really good solution that way. But if you bring in Bruce's humanity and see Bruce as a three-dimensional being, together, I bet you you can find something that's really amazing and with virtually no conflict at all.

 

Jeff Ma: Great. Awesome. Bruce, one of the things I always like to leave with is this idea that for listeners, I'd like to challenge them for the next week. So, something doable—not like "go change your life and turn it upside down"—but something they can just tangibly go and try this week to experiment and see when it comes to difficult conversations. What kind of challenge could you put out there for a listener here to go experience something new and try to see if it works for them?

 

Bruce Mayhew: Sure. I would ask a listener to do perhaps two things. Find someone they already trust—whether it's their best friend, probably somebody outside of the work environment—and have that opening conversation with them and say, "Hey Joe, there's usually a few things that I'm going to do every once in a while that are just going to rub you the wrong way, or that you think that I could become a better person if I paid attention to them differently." And invite them to have that conversation with you—to point them out to you. So I would say, try that on somebody who you already trust and see how that conversation goes.

 

And second, pay attention to your own feelings when you are being triggered, or when you're seeing things happen, that you go, "Hmm." And ask yourself: are they doing that consciously or unconsciously? Do you think that they're actually trying to be abrasive or disruptive or whatever, or is it something that's happening almost by mistake by them? And I will bet you that most of the time, your answer is that they don't realize that they're doing it. Because honestly, most people don't wake up thinking, "I'm going to mess Bruce up today!" Most people don't come across that way. So if you can start seeing where people are doing things unconsciously, I believe that we're able to better self-reflect and see when we are doing things that way. So I would say—I'd ask people to do both of those and see how it goes.

 

Jeff Ma: Awesome. We got a two-for-one double challenge! Go try it out. Bruce, I appreciate your time. I appreciate your wisdom. That was a great conversation around these difficult conversations and ones that we should be having more often, when I think about it. This is inspiring for me to go seek my difficult conversations out a little bit more. But in the meantime, thank you for being here, thank you for the time that you shared today.

 

Bruce Mayhew: Oh, thank you. It was great.

 

Jeff Ma: To listeners, thank you so much for sticking with us. I hope you enjoyed this episode and all the other ones coming your way. Check out the books *Love as a Business Strategy* and *Love as a Change Strategy* if you haven't. And also check out Bruce's book, *The Path of an Inspired Leader*, if you get a chance. Bruce, where can they find that book and more about you?

 

Bruce Mayhew: Amazon, Chapters Indigo, or Barnes & Noble for the book, for sure. You can find about me on LinkedIn, Bruce Mayhew—M-A-Y-H-E-W—or BruceMayhew.com is my website. Everything that is me is there.

 

Jeff Ma: Awesome. With that, thank you to everybody. Thank you to the listeners. We will see you all in two weeks for the next episode. In the meantime, have a good one. We'll see you next time.