Jeff: Hello and welcome to Love as a Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. I'm here to talk about life, business, change, but love. And we want to tackle topics that a lot of businesses and leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your Jeff, Jeff Ma, and as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories from real people about real work, real lives.

And this season, I want to dive into a focus on change, stories around change, and how change impacts us in the real world here. And today, I'm joined by Pinaki Kathiari, CEO of Local Wisdom and co-founder of Resource Hero. With over 25 years of experience working with Fortune companies, global nonprofits, and startups, Pinaki has built a career at the intersection of digital communication, leadership, and human experience. He's an international speaker, a board member with IABC New York, and co-Jeff of the podcast, *Why does it feel so wrong to be human at work?*, which is one of my favorite titles of all time. What drives him is simple but powerful: the belief that sustainable, profitable businesses are built on positive human experiences. And I'm so excited to dive into this blend of his expertise and our theme here at Love as a Strategy to create some real impact for the listeners. And I'm so excited to have you here. How are you doing today, Pinaki?

Pinaki: I am doing well, Jeff. Thank you. Thank you for that lovely introduction. Um, I appreciate you, what you do, and is, uh, really love how love is intertwined with business and and how you go about doing it. So, really excited to be here, excited to dig in and have this conversation with you.

Jeff: Absolutely. And just before we hit record, I was, we were just talking about how this show itself is going through a change into the topic of change. Like as of this recording yesterday was the launch of our new book, *Love is a Change Strategy*. And for years, this podcast has been *Love as a Business Strategy*. And I'm sitting here going, what, how do I, what do I do differently here in the podcast space? So here you are, um, really like the first Pinaki I'm broaching this topic with. So we're going to experiment today. Like today's going to be like uncharted territory because I've had a formula, I've had a formula for years. And here we are, I'm saying, take that, throw it out the window.

Um, and there's a question I've asked every Pinaki for two years, and it's what is your passion? And I still want to ask that, but I also want to add, um, where the change in like where what what is like the change you can think of in your life that has altered kind of your path the most?

Pinaki: Oh, very interesting. Uh, good question. Um, thank you. And first of all, congrats on the book.

Jeff: Thank you.

Pinaki: Uh, and I, you know, um, it's a monumental effort and a lot goes into it. And super exciting to be in this moment of change for for you and the podcast, and super excited to just do it serendipitously and dive right into change because that's the one thing that's consistent in all of our lives, right? Like, the only one thing that I know that is consistent and for sure is inconsistency and change.

Um, so yeah, change in my life. I've I've had uh, quite a few of them. Um, you know, we all have those like moments in our lives where it's kind of like you hit this type of fork in the road and because of a decision or something that happened, it just kind of drastically changes your life and things like that. And it's from big life moments to like little aha moments that just kind of change the direction.

Um, I'd like to say probably, personally, the biggest change in my life was probably having a, uh, a child at a young age. I was um, I was actually, it was right before my 22nd birthday, so I was technically 21 when I had my first daughter. Um, but here I am in a time where, you know, we just, um, going close to graduating college or graduated college, friends are out there. Um, the tech bubble burst at that time and I was graduating computer science and uh, I was having a baby.

And uh, so it kind of like put me in this like drastic change because before that, and I think any parent would tell you, you know that, right? Like it's once you're having your first, it's this something about the purpose that you have in life as a father or as a parent that that essentially changes everything.

Uh, so at the time when there was like a lot of, uh, friends of mine who were like traveling, living, you know, bachelor lives, partying and things like that. I was like, I have to, I have kids to feed now and I have to like, you know, to really kind of put on a focus and a drive and that change was hard at the beginning. The thought of it was scary as heck, but I, there are no regrets because it catapulted me and started me off in a foundation that you wouldn't get elsewhere.

Jeff: Wow.

Pinaki: Does that make sense? Yeah, the first thing I came into my mind. I'm not that I'm telling you all to go on off and have kids right now or anything like that, but…

Jeff: You heard it here first, go have kids as early as possible. It's good for you.

Pinaki: It, it, it kind of is.

Jeff: I can't, I can't imagine. I mean, um, obviously I'm a father, but you know, having at that phase of life is definitely a different type of challenge. Um, I'm curious, you know, fast forwarding to now and in all the work you do and all the transformation and changes that you've had to face and overcome in leading and in business, um, is there anything stand out for, of course, we're always trying to combine love as a change strategy and obviously I have my own definition of it, but I'm curious what role you feel, like personally, that love or care or or humans as a centric topic have been in your stories of change, you know, kind of in the workplace, kind of in in in your experience.

Pinaki: Yeah, that's, this is such a, I love this topic. It's such a wild thing because love in in uh, the world is just a very interesting thing, right? Because it's one of the things that in life could kind of draw us to something, someone, and also against something and someone, right? Love is such a powerful thing. Um, you know, I always kind of thought about it in terms of, it was like, you know, we like to, we we read things for two reasons mainly, right? One because we have to, and second because we want to, right? And one side like you have to read this, I don't know, SOP or manual or something like that. I have to read it in order to do this thing. And then there's like a good book or a fiction that you just really enjoy and you want to do that.

And that's where like love comes into work because without love or some kind of emotion into the work, it's it's like reading a manual. It's just, it almost, it does feel like work. But bringing a sense of emotion or yourself into the work is what creates things like culture and relationships and trust and things like that. And, you know, you, I don't think you can have like a successful, like business without those key elements because it is still people that are running the organization, uh, in many different ways.

Does that make sense? Yeah, make sure I want to, make sure I'm answering the question too, is like I think like, like, yeah, without love, it's hard to have a culture or belonging or a want to do things, right? Like and that's what kind of starts separating us as humans and robots.

Jeff: Agreed. And you know, I think this this very idea of change which I know we're all going through but it's just by nature something we just never get used to, right? It's just something that is uncomfortable every single time. Do you have, do you, like, do you have any, I'll leave it open to you. Like, do you have any advice or even a story or anecdote in your experience of all the change that you've faced, um, of like how to, how to, how you frame that in your, in your mind, how you approach that fear and that this discomfort of change.

Pinaki: Yeah, it is very interesting. And I think, uh, I've recently, uh, started getting into Ayurveda. Um, not a, and Ayurveda is like an ancient Indian science of life. It's not necessarily religious or spiritual or anything like that, but there are some spiritual elements in it. But it's where yoga, meditation, um, fasting, all all these things that we know today, it comes from Ayurveda.

And what I learned about myself in that is in Ayurveda, there are these things called dosha types and they're like kind of personality types. One of them is called, uh, Vata and that's what I am. And that is the wind type. There's basically wind, fire, earth. Um, and uh, the Vata type, this wind type is all about change. They they kind of, they love change. They their, they they embrace change. Like they actually need change, stuff like that. Meanwhile, there we have like the in, uh, earth type that is more solid and doesn't embrace change as as much because they they enjoy or they kind of like need this, uh, uh, stability, right? So, first of all, like change and the ability to change is different for different people. And I think that's the one thing to like really understand because, you know, I would frustrate somebody who is, uh, more of that like that, uh, earth type, right? Because I'll be like, oh, let's go here, let's go there, let's do all these different things. You're like, I just want to like sit here and just do this one thing type of thing. And I think that's one thing that I've like keep in my mind is that people are different and we have to kind of like adjust in a way and for each other. Like, I can't, I'll, I'll just, we'll both get frustrated if myself and the, um, the, um, the earth type are like just trying to get each other's way, uh, you know, like I just want to stay here and I just want to go around. We have to reach some kind of compromise or understanding of our ability to change.

Yeah. The other thing about change that, sorry, did I, could you offer word? Did that make sense first of all?

Jeff: No, I was just agreeing. Good good point.

Pinaki: I could, I could ramble, so feel free to stop me at any given point and be like, listen, let's talk about this. But uh, you know, change is also something that is time bound in a way. Like we all have to go through certain motions when we go through a change, right? Like we kind of go through, oh crap, like a change is happening, why is this happening? and kind of the groans to kind of get, okay, like, all right, this is happening, how can we, what can we do to like, hey, you know what? We've kind of passed through this. I got this, we could, we could go through this change.

And when you kind of hear about a news to when you get to that end state, that timeline is different for different people. And when you first hear about that change, that timeline could be different for different people, whereas like, I might hear about it first and you might hear about it second. So I'm already kind of further along that like psychological journey. Uh, meanwhile, you're not as as far along and then I have to basically be able to understand that, you know what, I've had more time with this to like let it sit with me than say Jeff has. So let me give him some time. So there's a whole lot about change that is like, and how do you understand the change within yourself, understand the change within the people around you, and then find that like right middle ground or right way to approach it together.

Jeff: Yeah. I, someone once told me that like there's no significant change that doesn't come with an element of grief or loss.

Pinaki: Exactly.

Jeff: And I thought that was so profound because, you know, you think of, sometimes you think of change, especially as in leadership, we think of change as just a tactical thing. Sometimes it's just the right business decision, it's just a tactical shift. And we don't always have the foresight or the insight into thinking about what type of loss we're creating for others. Even a simple change can have someone who's been doing something one way for a very long time having to change and having to do something differently might create, you know, loss for them, like the loss of their comfort, loss of their, you know, preferences, loss of their safety, their security. And that's, uh, I think often times that's one of the barriers to change we see. Like we see change fail and we wonder if we made the wrong choice, but sometimes I think we just weren't paying enough attention to the people that have to go through that change. Have you had anything, have you had any experience like that?

Pinaki: Yeah, yeah. Like, um, like, first of all, like I think we're saying it spot on. It was like we're all pattern recognizers and pattern followers. We like patterns, like, like, you know, what not, but then we also like change in patterns. So we have this like love-hate relationship towards change, um, because it's like a song, we love a song, we love to hear a song over and over again, but then at some point it gets played out and we're like, we want another song.

But I, I think we it's easy for like leadership to overwhelm people because I feel like one, like leadership don't know like from a a real experiential standpoint what the true thing originally was. They see it from their perspective, but it's not what the the person's perspective is who's actually in that mode. And so, yeah, they, they could, um, misinterpret how long it takes to do it currently, misinterpret like certain things about what how it's done currently. So, first of all, they have to like make sure when communicating change, they're accurately communicating why this change will be like better. And and at least listen to the other person's, the people as well to be like, does this make sense? Are you seeing something that I don't see? Bring them into the change decision making process.

The other thing I I've seen where it could fail is when there's too much change all at once because then it just kind of turns into, you never get to a place where you get to kind of stabilize again, right? And I think change is a bit of destabilization and then restabilization. But if it's change after change after change, you're just kind of like continuously like destabilizing.

Jeff: How do you know like that limit? Like, or at least how do you, how do you know how because some, sometimes change is happening, like we don't have a choice. Like change just like happens to us. But then it feels like in order to adapt to the change, we have to change.

Pinaki: Yeah.

Jeff: And so it's like…

Pinaki: I think about it like in throttles and like, um, sometimes I defer change. Like, hey, there's something that we have to do and we've started down this path. Oh, X thing just happened, but some external factor that we can't control and that's just going to, without a doubt, change the dynamic. We're like, hey, you know, we were working on this, we're going to pause on this because, you know what, we can't deal with so much change at once. So I do that often, kind of think of like what are all the things going on and what can I pause and and accelerate, or what could I hit the brakes on, what could I accelerate on and stuff like that.

Jeff: Mm. How do you, sorry, go ahead.

Pinaki: No, I was going to say have you experienced it and like what have, what have you kind of like recommended to like clients or and I'm curious to know what stories have come up in like your workshops as well related to these things.

Jeff: Well, I mean, we just, just published the book on it, so there's nothing but stories of change. But I mean, I like to talk about sometimes like the book tackles a lot of change at scale, these large, huge org structure changes, you know, big foundational changes to business, which I think a lot of people struggle with because of that very thing. It's like we're always seeking simple, um, fixes and solutions. And something like an org structure change does not, it's not one or even two or even five things to just do and you have it nailed down. It's complicated, it involves feelings and emotions and and people. And I think the the book really talks about how to put that people, that people focus first in the planning, in the strategy, in the communication.

But I also really love talking about change at the smaller scale. Like, right now, this this this episode itself is a change, and it's it's about experimenting, it's about trying and being uncomfortable and it's about having conversations. Like, Pinaki when you and I first chatted, it was to come on Love as a Business Strategy. Before I hit record, I'm like, hey, can we talk about change? And you're like, let's do it. And so, so we're like, we're we're in the process right now. And it and it, and it and it is uncomfortable, right? It is a little scary and it makes things harder, but at the same time, I I I love to really process and think through and recognize the growth that always comes out of it. Like for, you know, in a small scale, you and I here, we're having a good time. We're learning from each other. Um, but also in the large scale stuff. I mean, so yeah, stories abound and we're in the middle of it even right now.

Pinaki: Yeah, exactly. Um, and it and it's funny, right? Like how we're talking about like it's all relative, right? Like, um, yeah, this change in the podcast and I, I think I think it's important to like just to embrace change. Again, this is me. I'm sorry, I just said like, I think it's important to just embrace change, right? This is me being that wind type. I, I I enjoy change. I get bored with doing the same thing over and over again, trying to find different ways. I always say when when I see everyone is like zigging, I'll zag because I'm like, you know, why go in that same direction for everybody.

Um, so I I think, you know, even for, um, folks who who are not finding themselves like open to change, like, practice it little by little. Change maybe a little something or right, kind of because, you know, it changes your perspective and that gives you different ideas on things and stuff like that. And I think that's really, really important. Like every now and then, you know, we're so not used to going outside and just like looking up and looking at the sky or looking at the expanse, but maybe take a moment to do that and see how that change affects you. So in like little pockets of change.

Jeff: I mean, I you I know you haven't read the book because it just came out, but that's spot on to like what we talk, I mean, we have an entire principle around experimentation, right? And kind of embracing, um, something different in that very way, which is this idea that we have to experience something different to start believing something different. And yeah. And it's when we believe something different is when we can really change and do something different. And so it's it's it's one of those ideas that like we're all afraid of change because of kind of the belief that we've built up about what that change might mean. But I love I love what you just said about like just just go outside and look up if you don't normally do that, just that experiment and just that experience might be like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know this is like, like I might, you know, and and and worst case, it changes nothing, but you tried, you know, like that's kind of the idea. And I love that, I love that perspective.

Pinaki: Yeah, exactly. Worst case, you got a little bit more vitamin D maybe, I don't know. Always look for the positive side, hopefully. But um, yeah, that that's the concept. I think like growth doesn't come in sameness, right? If you're doing the same thing, you know, like there's there's not growth. Growth doesn't come in your comfort zone, right? Growth comes when you extend beyond that, whether that like mental growth or even physical muscle growth, right? comes from damaging and like hurting yourself in order to regrow certain things. And same thing with change. So it could be, it could be good practice to learn how to endure change.

Jeff: Yeah. Um, beautifully put. I love that we decided to talk about change today and without reading the book, you're just basically quoting lines right out of it. So here we are, just it's brilliant minds.

Pinaki: You know, it's just like, you know, *Love as a Business Strategy* and *Why does it feel so wrong to be human at work?* There were so many, when we first talked, there were so many like synergies that I'm like, this is like uncanny. It's like, uh, it's like, uh, alternate or parallel universe of the same thing.

Jeff: Yeah.

Pinaki: It's really cool.

Jeff: As we run out of time here, tell me about *Why does it feel so wrong to be human at work?* Like, title says a lot, but but fill in the blanks. What what is that about and and what's the answer? What's the answer to the question? Just give me the answer. Why?

Pinaki: Right? Um, you know, like the, the quick story, uh, uh, which started it was basically at our company, we, uh, local wisdom, we have like monthly meetings and as part of those monthly meetings, we have this time where we call kudos where we're a small company, like 40 people, but anyone is, uh, open to like get up and thank someone else or other people for something they did in that last month. And it's a lot of fun and it could take a lot of time. Like it goes 20, 25 minutes, but I noticed that when they get to this 20 minute mark, people are now feeling rushed, like, like, oh my god, I'm sorry, I have a few more. And I've I've actually repeatedly said that, hey, um, it's okay if this whole, if you spend this whole time just thanking each other, that's a win in my book, right?

Uh, but then I found myself apologizing one time too. So and it just hit me. Like, why does it feel so wrong to just sit at work and thank each other for an hour? And then that just started opening up a whole bunch of things like why does it feel so wrong to take the afternoon off? Why does it feel so wrong to say no to your boss and things like that?

And I was talking about this with Chris Lee, uh, who is, uh, uh, VP of communications at Gallagher and he, he was like, let's do a podcast out of this because similar to like you and I, we just had great conversations. Uh, and we started it off. It was a seasonal thing. So just like that concept, every episode is a what does it feel so wrong to something, like be an A-hole at work is in season two or feel like you belong and things like that. And we just think that throughout, throughout the existence of the concept of paid work, um, we've just been conditioned, uh, to believe and do a lot of things that we haven't taken a step back and said, hey, why are we doing this? And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to just take a step back and look, why, why is it this way? And each topic, we're looking at it from all sides of the equation. So it's not like a one-sided bashing type of thing. And each, each episode I'm trying to get into the research and the history behind the the constructs behind it. So it's, uh, some fun satire, it's some some research and some history behind it. And it's, uh, it's good conversations to make you kind of sit back and just think, why is this? and can I change it up a little bit?

Jeff: I love it. I love it. Obviously, uh, I smell a crossover episode.

Pinaki: Yeah, I think so. There's so much synergy.

Jeff: Yeah. And and it's a great question, like to just constantly be asking because our our our mission here is to bring humanity and at least from my end, it's to bring humanity back to the workplace. And it really at the center of that is that question. Is is like, why is it so hard to be human at at work? Is Yeah. my, we're like saying the same thing in just different ways and it's just, it's lovely. I just, I just can't get over it. I can't get over it.

Pinaki: It's really funny. Like, um, you know, while recording like the the well, in the seasons, I had like the, you know, the seasons lists in front of me and quite literally, just having those questions because every episode's like, why does it feel so wrong to, um, to ask for help, for example. So there's like a basically now there's 20 episodes right now because we just finished season two, and just by keeping those questions in front of me, I feel has made me a better leader because I'm thinking about it like, why does it feel so wrong to use jargon at work? And I'm like, oh wait a minute, I'm using jargon. Let me stop, you know, things like that.

Jeff: I love that. Oh, man. All right. Well, Pinaki, thank you so much for your time and obviously, uh, I will need to go check out more and the audience should check out *Why does it feel so wrong to be human at work?*. Um, but also, um, any other any other plug, any other way people can reach you, learn more from you, hear from you.

Pinaki: Yeah, uh, you know, um, uh, I'm similar like, like love teaching, love sharing my wisdom from the things that I do. Um, you know, find me on LinkedIn, uh, Pinaki Kathiari, there's not many of me out there. Um, connect with me, uh, love to chat. Um, love to help and yeah, for, uh, any of you who are like thinking about change or seeing a change coming and feeling that like swell up and anxiety, uh, approach you, you know, just be kind to yourself. That is a normal part of change. And be okay with it and even try to understand where that's coming from. That'll help you get through the other change.

Jeff: Awesome. Thank you so much to my Pinaki and to the audience. Um, things are changing. Glad you're here for it. Uh, if you're enjoying this, please tell a friend, rate the episode, all that good stuff. But also, new book is out, *Love is a Change Strategy*, find it everywhere. Um, if you haven't seen the first one, *Love as a Business Strategy* is a best seller, still out there, still proud of it. Thank you for your support. Thank you for checking this out. And we will see you all in a few weeks. Thank you so much and have a good one.

Pinaki: Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, everybody.